Advice On Brakes!

[DoWork]

I know you guys are pretty knowledgeable in this field, so I was wondering if I could get some advice, please.

I am currently running Stoptech street pads and R1 Concepts rotors. It works, but, I am hoping for a more aggressive setup as the current setup leaves something to be desired at times.

What do you guys recommend for pads, rotors, and fluid? Are master cylinder braces really worth the hype? Any recommendations on a bias controller? Is there anything else you guys recommend I do?

I dont so much care about noise, and dust, and all that other crap as the car rarely gets driven. I plan on doing a full fluid change in spring as I am removing the ABS from the car, so I would rather upgrade fluid at that time.

Thanks in advance!

[Evilatom]

More information would be beneficial. What's the car? Front/rear weight distribution? What type of events are you primarly concerned with? Is it street driven at all? Any problems with your current set up - how would you describe them?

I have a friend that has shared a lot of brake-related info with me over the years. He's a brake systems engineer that has worked for a number of auto manufacturers, an SCCA racer, and has written a number of articles for Grassroots Motorsports Magazine, and has authored white papers that are on StopTech's site. His book can be found on Amazon here (http://www.amazon.com/High-Performance-Brake-Systems-Selection-Installation/dp/1932494324/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323614150&sr=8-1) if anyone cares. The advice he's given me, and everything I've learned from his published articles has always served me well and more importantly, I trust what he preaches. What follows is based on what I've learned.


The tires that you run influence your braking ability more than most people realize. What type of tires do you use for events? Want your brakes to be more effective? Use stickier tires.

Several cars ago, I experimented with disabling the ABS and found that when you do, the bias will likely not be what it's supposed to be. Without adjustments, your braking will be worse then than if you'd left the ABS alone. I dealt with that by using different pad compounds front and rear (based on front to rear weight percentages). Results were outstanding without having to plumb a hydraulic bias control into the braking system or regulate it by some other means.

Master cylinder braces, really? I recall James saying as well that people often think that reinforcing the firewall might be worthwhile but that really isn't the case.

[TomKat]

Dizmm has a master cylinder brace on his EVO.

[Dizmm]

Like Lane said, tires do the real stopping, not the brakes.

If you are not doing any long 15-20 minutes of 100%, then you really dont need much for brakes except for some GOOD brake pads and some fresh fluid (SuperBlue as its cheap). Stock, cheap rotors do just fine along with stock lines, stock calipers, and all other brake parts (assuming this is for your WRX).

Now if your plans are to do some stage rally or extended lapping, then you need to stick more time/money into your brakes and look into expensive calipers, rotors, fluid, and maybe a few other things.


on my WRX, i ran stock cheap rotors, Super blue, and those same brake pads at Brainard for several laps in a row, plus the entire auto-x season and showano. They held up much better than I expected.


For the average club racer:
-good expensive brake pads and fluid
-cheap rotors
-everything else stock, maybe some SS lines.

[DoWork]

The car is a 06 WRX evilatom. It hardly ever sees the street except for when we are tuning, or in transit to an event. I have no idea what it's weight or even weight distribution is at this point, as I have not had it on the scales.

Sticky tires arent really an option as of right now, as the car is built mostly for rallyX. I depend a lot on the traction that is available to stop.

My main complaint at this point is that it seems to take a lot to get the car to slow quickly...it just doesnt want to "stand on end" for lack of better terms. I guess a better way to say it would be it requires a lot of pedal effort to really get the car to slow fast. I was thinking maybe a more aggressive pad would help this. Dont get me wrong, it stops, just not as well as I would like.

My ABS can be killed via a toggle switch, and so far, I REALLY like the car with the ABS off. Subaru ABS is really overactive in my opinion. It also seems to me like the car stops faster, with less effort. Given that, I had been thinking about deleting the ABS pump all together, and plumbing in a bias controller.

As Dizmm said, the car is used in short burts for now. Mostly RallyX, a few "backwoods sprints", and will be used for autoX next summer when I have my coilovers and a street tire/wheel combo. Stage Rally isnt really anything we are worried about at this point as my door bars need to be corrected, I need fixed back seats, and I, myself am not ready for that sort of driving yet.

I am liking what I have read about Super Blue, and I would like to give it a try. As for SS lines, I thought I had read on here that they are a bad idea?

[TomKat]

As for SS lines, I thought I had read on here that they are a bad idea?

Cheap SS lines are a really bad idea. There are a lot of really bad SS lines out there. I personally would stick with factory rubber lines. A lot of people will debate this though.

A lot of people think you will get a better pedal feel with SS lines. You won't.

Dizmm had no comment about his master cylinder brace.??? Would be interested in hearing his thoughts on that since he has experienced an EVO with one and one without.

[Shane]

I think You just need some good gravel tires, not better brakes... and yea ABS on the subis is pretty crappy off road. What do you need brakes for anyways in the dirt? Just flick it haha. I'd say tires, good pads, cheap rotors as you wont be introducing them to super high heat on the dirt like you would on a road course.

[Deadly_Evolution]

The reason the pedal feels like that (and I've done some research and have the same exact car as you) is because Subaru got some idea in their head that the brakes should feel less aggressive. In 2006 they down sized the diameter of the piston inside the master cylinder. A lot of people upgrade them to the larger brake master cylinder to pick up the "feel". You'll also note that most reviews of the 2006 wrx commented about increased braking distance compared to previous years with smaller and less advanced brakes. Master cylinder to blame, and HORRIBLE pads, they have such bad bite I can't even get my abs to kick in if I stand on the pedal and they are faded after 3 hard stops, no joke.


Also the brace if to keep the brakes feeling consistent, then the firewall flexes and it does a LOT, the pedal will feel different, and this can really make a difference if you're running an non abs braking system, and braking at the tires limits.

[DoWork]

Cheap SS lines are a really bad idea. There are a lot of really bad SS lines out there. I personally would stick with factory rubber lines. A lot of people will debate this though.

A lot of people think you will get a better pedal feel with SS lines. You won't.

Dizmm had no comment about his master cylinder brace.??? Would be interested in hearing his thoughts on that since he has experienced an EVO with one and one without.

Thanks for the input Tom. I too would like to hear what he has to say about the brace. It seems easy enough to make one, and I have the stuff here. I'm just wondering if its worth the time.

I think You just need some good gravel tires, not better brakes... and yea ABS on the subis is pretty crappy off road. What do you need brakes for anyways in the dirt? Just flick it haha. I'd say tires, good pads, cheap rotors as you wont be introducing them to super high heat on the dirt like you would on a road course.

Yes, I am in need of gravel tires, but I am also in need of a set of proper 15" wheels to run them. The tires I have now hook up decent in loose stuff, but nothing like a "real" tire would. Granted though, this is really not the time of year to be running a gravel tire.

My braking "issue" not only lies off road, but on road too. I have to fight the car to even drag a tire. Before anyone says it, yes, I know a skidding tire is not a stopping tire. It was more of a measure of lack of clamping power.

The reason the pedal feels like that (and I've done some research and have the same exact car as you) is because Subaru got some idea in their head that the brakes should feel less aggressive. In 2006 they down sized the diameter of the piston inside the master cylinder. A lot of people upgrade them to the larger brake master cylinder to pick up the "feel". You'll also note that most reviews of the 2006 wrx commented about increased braking distance compared to previous years with smaller and less advanced brakes. Master cylinder to blame, and HORRIBLE pads, they have such bad bite I can't even get my abs to kick in if I stand on the pedal and they are faded after 3 hard stops, no joke.


Also the brace if to keep the brakes feeling consistent, then the firewall flexes and it does a LOT, the pedal will feel different, and this can really make a difference if you're running an non abs braking system, and braking at the tires limits.

The calipers themselves arent to blame. The calipers on the 06-07 cars are the same ones used on euro wrx's since 97 or so, and are the same calipers used on the GrpN gravel cars. If there is an issue anywhere with the hydraulic system, it would have to be the master cylinder. I have also heard of retrofitting the STi master to the car, but I havent priced that out yet as I would like to avoid it if possible.

The car feel MUCH different with the ABS fuse pulled. Try it sometime. I bet you will like it. You could even do like I did and put it on a toggle switch. It works better both on pavement and off road. You can actually get the car what you want it to do what you want with a little bit of left foot input, whereas the ABS made it harder to do in my honest opinion.

I have also heard a lot about people deleting the brake booster, but the smaller master cylinder in our cars makes me somewhat nervous about it. I had planned to try it out on the field access roads by my parents house, but havent had a chance to yet. I plan on pulling the vac line and seeing if I like the feel of it before I move forward to making a spacer.

That being said, I am really glad someone else is having a similar issue as I. Maybe we can get something figured out! Granted, I am more than likely willing to take some more "drastic" measures, but there has to be a happy medium/somewhat easy solution somewhere.

[Evilatom]

I guess a better way to say it would be it requires a lot of pedal effort to really get the car to slow fast.


I have also heard a lot about people deleting the brake booster, but the smaller master cylinder in our cars makes me somewhat nervous about it. I had planned to try it out on the field access roads by my parents house, but havent had a chance to yet. I plan on pulling the vac line and seeing if I like the feel of it before I move forward to making a spacer.

I would say that those two statements contradict each other. My Atom has full manual brakes (no booster or vacuum assist). It takes some time to get used to as it takes significantly more effort to work the pedal. And that's on a 1300 lb car with 4-piston calipers on each corner. I can't imagine the level of effort needed to brake a 3500 lb car with no assist.

[DoWork]

I would say that those two statements contradict each other. My Atom has full manual brakes (no booster or vacuum assist). It takes some time to get used to as it takes significantly more effort to work the pedal. And that's on a 1300 lb car with 4-piston calipers on each corner. I can't imagine the level of effort needed to brake a 3500 lb car with no assist.

I guess I should better explain my use of the term "pedal effort" in my first statement. I was more referring to the fact that you have to depress the brake pedal a good amount before the brakes actually start to do anything real. Its not just my car either, any of them I have driven are that way. The brake pedal goes down about 1/4 of the way or more before you see any decent stopping power. Its hard to explain, I guess you would have to experience it. I even tried bleeding mine to see if it helped with no results. Dont get me wrong, the car stops fine under regular driving. It just doesnt seem to like to be driven hard.

I agree though, if you read it as its written, it makes no sense.

The servo delete is a pretty common thing on these cars....not sure how it works though, as I have never tried it. As I said, I wanted to try it out by my parents house on a closed course so as not to injure anyone in the event that it fails horribly lol

[Dizmm]

the MC Brace,.... i'm sure it does a little something, but not sure if its needed on a street car.

DoWork, sounds like you should get some carbotech pads and then get back to us. You'd be upgrading them regardless of what other mods you do.

[DoWork]

I can give them a shot I suppose. Which pad do you think? I was thinking the AX6 Panther+ since the car does see the street from time to time. Am I right in this decision, or is it not what I would be looking for? Is that a substantial upgrade from what I have now? How quick are the Carbotechs gonna eat up my rotors?

[Dizmm]

I can give them a shot I suppose. Which pad do you think? I was thinking the AX6 Panther+ since the car does see the street from time to time. Am I right in this decision, or is it not what I would be looking for? Is that a substantial upgrade from what I have now? How quick are the Carbotechs gonna eat up my rotors?

I ran 2 full sets of XP12's on my evo to one set of rotors.

Rotors are cheap.

The AX6's are supposed to be their autoX pad. I've never ran them. I can only speak on behalf of the XP10's and 12's, both of which you can’t go wrong with.

They both will make noise and provide you with dirty looking rims.

[DoWork]

Thanks man...

[TomKat]

And eat your rotors. But you buy cheap rotors and replace them frequently.

[Deadly_Evolution]

Thanks for the input Tom. I too would like to hear what he has to say about the brace. It seems easy enough to make one, and I have the stuff here. I'm just wondering if its worth the time.



Yes, I am in need of gravel tires, but I am also in need of a set of proper 15" wheels to run them. The tires I have now hook up decent in loose stuff, but nothing like a "real" tire would. Granted though, this is really not the time of year to be running a gravel tire.

My braking "issue" not only lies off road, but on road too. I have to fight the car to even drag a tire. Before anyone says it, yes, I know a skidding tire is not a stopping tire. It was more of a measure of lack of clamping power.




The calipers themselves arent to blame. The calipers on the 06-07 cars are the same ones used on euro wrx's since 97 or so, and are the same calipers used on the GrpN gravel cars. If there is an issue anywhere with the hydraulic system, it would have to be the master cylinder. I have also heard of retrofitting the STi master to the car, but I havent priced that out yet as I would like to avoid it if possible.


That being said, I am really glad someone else is having a similar issue as I. Maybe we can get something figured out! Granted, I am more than likely willing to take some more "drastic" measures, but there has to be a happy medium/somewhat easy solution somewhere.

Never said the calipers were to blame, where did you get that from? I said the brake master cylinder piston size is what you are feeling, makes the brakes feel like mush and my other comment was on the OEM type pads SUCK! It's a hard feeling to get past when you think the brakes should be better but you find yourself having to put more effort into them than expected. This is amplified even more so when you are use to say.. an EVO or STi.

To back that even further the 06 WRX had the worst braking stopping distance test results of any WRX of previous years. I plan to upgrade my pads, still not sure to what though.

[DoWork]

I wasnt saying you did....I remember seeing something about smaller/less advanced, and I guess I started thinking/typing at the same time without re-reading. I am sorry if you took it wrong. I do that from time to time. I too have read about the MC downgrade.

I have a guy(insert Pawn Stars joke here) in Barbados that deals with/works on a lot of rally cars. I has a pretty extensive knowledge of the Subaru line, everywhere from the WRC cars to GrpN. I will see if he knows of any "tricks"

[Scrad]

I'll give you my experiences with the both of the Legacy's brakes that I used. (Very similar to the WRX brakes).

First off the stock pads on the Subaru's suck. I only run them in the winter months.

On my Stage 2 Legacy I put on some Hawk HP+ front and rear with Racing Brake slotted rotors and Super Blue. This setup was 10x better than the stock crap. It would pretty much throw me into the dash and all my shit in the back seat would be in the front. Had tons of initial bite. I ran this setup at a few Shawano lapping days and never felt the brakes go soft. I even had the paint bubble on my calipers and melted the threads off the center caps of my rims.

Now on my slow Legacy I only put on Stoptech pads with the stock rotors. This setup to me feels about how you would want the car to be from the factory. The initial bite is less than the HP+ and has a little bit less braking power overall. I autox this setup with stock fluid and it did fine. I think I'd feel some fade if I did a lapping day with them though.

IMO, if I was you I'd just get some better pads and Super Blue first. Get the Carbotech or some HP+ and I think you'd be plenty happy. If that isn't enough for you then get some good rotors. But for the stuff you want to do I think good pads will be enough for you.

[DoWork]

Awesome advice. Thank you!

[SgtRauksauff]

Braided lines - meh, whatever. whatever lines you have, make sure they're good ones.

Master Cylinder Brace: it really depends on the car, not all cars are built the same. I want to get one for my corolla, as the firewall deflects a LOT under heavy braking, almost a quarter-inch. When you consider that the piston in MC itself is only moving about an inch, that's quite a lot and could add to a very squishy feeling pedal. Many of the rally cars move to dual cylinders with no vacuum booster, but almost always, even when keeping the booster, the firewall is reinforced to limit that flexing. I'd say get someone to watch it while you stand on the brakes, or you watch it while they stand on 'em. See how much it flexes, if it's a lot, then put in a brace.

Pad Choice: I think you'll like the Carbotechs a lot. I ran XP10 on the front and XP8 on the back of my corolla. They did great. Then I got Raybestos ST-45/ST-43. Raybestos is to Carbotech as Carbotech is to Hawk, in my opinion.

Fluid: Super Blue works great. Although, even with Super Blue and good pads, I was boiling fluid. Then I installed my ducts, and the problem went away. Just make sure you have a way to remove the heat that you put into the system.

--sarge

[DoWork]

Thank you for your advice Sarge. I appreciate it.

[EVILUTION]

I'm glad you carbotech nut huggers are finally seeing the raybestos light.

[DoWork]

I'm glad you carbotech nut huggers are finally seeing the raybestos light.

Care to elaborate please?

[Dizmm]

Care to elaborate please?

Evil thinks raybestos pads are the best thing since sliced bread.

I tell people to use carbotechs because thats what i've used and have had only positive results. Other pads I used were Hawk DTC70, HAWK HP+'s, PFC97's, PFC01's, RacingBrakes ET900's, Furrodo 3500 and 2500's.

When i find something that works better than expected, I'll stick with it. After a few experiences with poor pads, I told myself never to "try" something that’s so vital.

I've managed to boil fresh motul600 at BHF, but never hit pad fade.

[DoWork]

When i find something that works better than expected, I'll stick with it.


I do the same....

[DoWork]

I am going to give this a shot: http://www.scoobymods.com/adjust-brake-pedal-free-play-t7436.html
Although, I dont forsee getting to my pedals being an easy task.

Combined with a better pad, and maybe some better fluid, I think it will work nicely.

[DirtyBird]

Dont need no stinkin brakes!

[paulmeisterpk]

I run hawk hp+ on my vette. I was impressed. The stock pads wouldn't stop at all. Now I have plenty of stopping power. And they were half the price of carbotechs.