Leaded Race Fuel VS Oxygenated Unleaded Race Fuel

[EVILUTION]

I wanted to know if the oxygenated race fuel was worth paying the extra money for so I simply shot an email off to support at www.turboblue.com, here is the reply:

Jeff,

The oxygen has the potential to make difference if you tune for it.

We add oxygen to the fuel by adding ethanol. If you add ethanol to the
fuel you are providing that fuel with some extra oxygen that it can use
to burn. Therefore, you can richen the mixture and actually put more
fuel into the combustion chamber with each stroke. In the case of
Unleaded Plus you can richen the mixture by about 4.8% because it
contains 4.8% oxygen by weight.

This extra fuel and ethanol does two things. First, in a simplistic
sense, the more fuel and air you can move through an engine the more
power you can get out. Secondly, the ethanol requires much more heat to
evaporate than gasoline. This evaporation causes the intake and
combustion chamber temperatures to drop slightly making for a denser
charge. Kind of like a chemical intercooler. That's why alcohol
engines make so much power. They pour about twice as much fuel into the
engine as gasoline and that fuel is pulling out a great deal of heat
from the engine.

In reality, the difference, due to the use of an oxygenate, would
probably be fairly small. Even though you are using more fuel, the
alcohol contains about half the heat energy of the gasoline.

Not knowing the specifics about your engine I really can't say if it
will help or not. If your engine is tuned to need the 110 octane than I
wouldn't even consider it as the unleaded is 104 octane. The extra
oxygen would give you nothing compared with the 110. If you're
application can get away with the 104 octane then you might see a slight
difference provided you tune for it.

Rich McCain
Technical/Operations Specialist
Sunoco Racing Fuels

[devlish]

seems like a well thought out response. he didn't just give you techno babble, he actually mentioned that you'd need to tune for the added oxygen in the fuel, which a lot of people might not have considered.

interesting read.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

yes, and he does not sound like he is just trying to sell it to you. He's more informative than just another salesman.

[EVILUTION]

Last night was a somewhat interesting night of wrenching. I had an exhaust leak that I wanted to fix and I also decided to do a health and welfare check on Darth. I just finished running a half a tank of turbo blue so I decided to inspect the plugs, O2 sensor, and turbo to see if there was lead build up of any kind.

I pulled the manifold and O2 housing they were both very white in color but didn't appear to have build up of any kind. The O2 sensore was fairly gray. It did have lead dust on it but it wasn't bad by any means. I then pulled my plugs (iridiums) and they looked as clean as the day I put them in. I decided to do a compression check while I was at it. All numbers came out on the high end of the scale and all were within 5psi of one another.

Lastly before I put everything back together I noticed the ring that holds the cold side of the turbo to the hotside of the turbo had worked itself loose. I must not have cranked it down enough when installing the factory hotside and housing earlier this year. This caused a pretty decent sized leak. I'm sure that leak was robbing power from Darth. So I fixed all that jazz and ran a boost leak check. All appears to be in order now.

Now if I would just fix the clutch that car would be back to better-than-new condition.

[TSi_II]

I don't even think god could get my car in better than new condition... I couldn't even make a list of what's all wrong with that damn thing... I need DSMLink. Maybe that'll give me a piece of mind.

[devlish]

i suggest trying to fix everything properly before buying a really expensive bandaid (dsmlink) to try and hide all the underlying problems.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

DSM-link really wont cure much. Sure you can disable your computer from throwing certian CEL's but thats not fixing anything. DSM-link is a good tool that will tell you what to fix, but is not going to fix the problem.

[EVILUTION]

I really don't understand how you can tolerate running around with a broken car. Why not make a list of whats dicked up and go after the easiest things to fix first. I would never add go fast mods to a car that wan't in top notch shape. Forget doing the exhaust and fix the little things first.

By now there is a HOW-TO for just about everything DSM related.

[Pointdsm]

Exactly, i'm stock piling parts right now for over x-mas, but i'm also fixing everything, which is only a couple things, and changing every imaginable fluid on the car. I'll be chaning my whole brake system this winter as well, as well as suspension, so i can eliminate having problems with that. Just stop spending money on go fast parts unless they ARE going to fix your problems, not hide them.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

By now there is a HOW-TO for just about everything DSM related.

http://www.dsmsupport.com/dsm_guide.html

[TSi_II]

Yeah I'm aware of that, and I'm on Tuners and Talk more than I'm on here... But there's just a few things that have stumped more than just me, and the car runs fine, just as you said though, there are underlying problems that should be fixed, and I was kidding about DSMLink, I won't get that till I know it'll actually help.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

Yeah I'm aware of that, and I'm on Tuners and Talk more than I'm on here... But there's just a few things that have stumped more than just me, and the car runs fine, just as you said though, there are underlying problems that should be fixed, and I was kidding about DSMLink, I won't get that till I know it'll actually help.

Tell us whats wrong with your car, maybe we can help. There are some very knowledgable guys here.

[TSi_II]

1) my car gave itself cams today... Idles around 450-500 and only reads around 14 on the vac side during idle

2) huge backfires under WOT, that one I'm guessing is a boost leak and has only happened once, I don't wanna do that again

3) My car decided to play turkey today and sound like an HKS SSQV (I have a greddy RS) sounds juuuust like compressor surge.

4) car won't enter closed loop fuel control. I've changed the coolant temp sensor twice, front o2 once, the other coolant temp sensor once, thermostat... nothing.

5) due to #4, a/f gauge won't work.. that's not a serious problem though.

6) i'll get back to you when I remember more (and there is more). I have to go outside and change the spark plugs and oil, then head off to work. thanks in advance if your answers get me anywhere...

[TSi_II]

Not so sure if I need a step colder plugs or not (BPR7ES) but that's what I'm running... Not sure if that could cause problems or not, I just seem to go through them a little quicker.

[TSi_II]

1 last thing... #1 and #3 both happened today around lunch. The car also won't boost anything over (used to be 8-9, now it's 10-11) 11 psi. I would test the WGA, but I'm not going to go full throttle until everything else is fixed and I know it won't backfire and shoot flames out the ass. This stuff is all recently been happening, so I'm not driving the car as much as possible.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

few things I would so are:

NEW plugs and wires since those seems to be some of the biggest problems on this car. I cant tell you how many times I buy one of these things it it stutters under boost, replace the plugs and wires and its fixed. So install some BPR6's for winter use.

FIX any boost leaks, that will really throw these cars off with the MAF being before the turbo.

For your car not going into closed loop, is your O2 sensor working? Do you have a datalogger? If you can watch the O2 sensor from start-up, watch to see if the O2 sensor starts to cycle. It wont start cycling until a few things are met: 178 degrees or greater engine temp, intake temp between 32 and 122 degrees, engine rpm between 2400-4000 rpm, and this all has to happen for about 30 seconds until your O2 sensor will start cycling.

Also are there any other CEL's?

[TSi_II]

If I had a datalogger I'd let you know... I haven't had codes pulled for a while, so I'm not positive what other ones are on there... There wasn't an o2 code last time, so I'm not sure about that, I changed it once and it didn't go away. I've got Accel wires, I'll have to pick up some new ones and some 6's for spark plugs. I haven't changed the fuel filter, but haven't really heard any horror stories about those causing huge problems, I'll have to try that too.

EDIT: Oh and by the way, when I went to change the plugs I saw my boost controller hanging there with nothing coming out of the WGA side, so that fixed my idle and turkey-BOV from that.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

may want to get your codes checked. saves a lot of time/money so you dont fix things that u dont have to.

[VPT]

H O N D A :idea:

[TSi_II]

4g63 powered Honda? Hmm no thanks... Would be interesting though, lol

[VPT]

No, you want to get rid of the problems not create more.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

again, I've had more problems with my honda than my DSM.

[EVILUTION]

The first step to fix anything on a boosted car is a boost leak check.

The next thing I would troubleshoot is the open/closed loop problem as that is a pretty big deal and affects your entire tune.

[TSi_II]

Yeah... The CTS for the ECU can throw off the fuel trims by a shitload if it's not operating right... It's got one hell of a boosting problem, it only half boosts up till like 4.5-5k then full boost hits, 1k later the cams quit, so racing seems useless. If your uptown I'll show you what I mean and maybe you can tell... Cause so far, no one has any clue.

[TSi_II]

Well to put somewhat of an end to this highly off-topic thread...
With the help of Extreme thinking for 10 seconds, we realized I'm still on the stock fuel pump... This big backfire is something familiar, fuel cut. Time for a Walbro and AFPR, but of course, after my car is running right again...

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

unless you are trying to make a 12 second car, just put a 190 in there and run the stock FPR. save you $100.

[TSi_II]

Nah i'm not gunna shoot low... When it's time to upgrade that $100 saved just turned into $100 wasted... If you happen to have a 190 laying around, then I might change my ways. But if I have to go through the trouble and time to wait and order one, I think I'm just gunna stick with a 255 and AFPR

[devlish]

yes, the 190 fuel pump will support a ported big 16g at 18-19psi all day long. but not reccommended for 20psi+ on a regular basis. this is info i receieved from Buschar, SlowBoy & Extreme Motorsports. all 3 places said the same thing to me when i was getting my Evo 16g turbo and had concerns about my 255. however, i have a 255 that i'm not using if you want to buy it. i think i'll keep my 190 in there. less work and it's all i really need i guess.

[TSi_II]

I had plans of skipping over the 16g phase over the winter and next summer... So I have to start stashing parts and fixing the stock ones sometime. Does it have all the fittings and whatever the hell else I need to get it goin in my car?

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

there are no fittings needed to install a fuel pump.

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/pump-WB-2GAWD.html

[TSi_II]

Well that answers my question then... Kurt send me a PM or give me a call if you wanna get rid of that sometime soon. 347-6131

[devlish]

ok. it is the full Walbro 255 kit, with the foam filter sleeve and all that little shit

[TSi_II]

I should be able to buy it today... I might be tied up for a while because VPT may be doing an o2 dump for me tonight... But let me know how much and when you're around and we'll work somethin out...

[EVILUTION]

If you fuel pump is the problem then lower your boost and see if the problem goes away. Rewiring your stock FP in a nice band aid until an upgrade is needed.

Have you tried a different ECU?

[TSi_II]

Nope, haven't checked the ECU yet.... Although it could be the problem, because I'm hitting fuel cut at 11 psi... I ran an open WGA and it boosted to 16psi fine before I hit fuel cut, which is what it's supposed to do, so if the pump/regulator combo doesn't work, ECU will be next on the hitlist.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

Nope, haven't checked the ECU yet.... Although it could be the problem, because I'm hitting fuel cut at 11 psi... I ran an open WGA and it boosted to 16psi fine before I hit fuel cut, which is what it's supposed to do, so if the pump/regulator combo doesn't work, ECU will be next on the hitlist.

What turbo u running? Fuel cut really has nothing to do with fuel. Fuel cut occurs when there is so much CFM going through the MAF. You can have all the fuel mods you want but fuel cut will still occur if your running stock MAF and all stock computer with no piggyback like an safc.

[Pointdsm]

Um, last summer i was running 17psi all day long on the 14b without any tuning, just my 255. Sure if i bumped it at all up to 18psi i hit fuel cut. With you hitting fuel cut at 11psi, it sounds like a fuel problem, not a tuning problem. The car probably thinks its getting x amount of fuel, but for some reason the fuel isn;t getting there an is creating a lean condition. Just put a 255 in there and be done with it, your going to need it, might as well get that out of the way and start eliminating things. Have you done a boost test yet????

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

Um, last summer i was running 17psi all day long on the 14b without any tuning, just my 255. Sure if i bumped it at all up to 18psi i hit fuel cut. With you hitting fuel cut at 11psi, it sounds like a fuel problem, not a tuning problem. The car probably thinks its getting x amount of fuel, but for some reason the fuel isn;t getting there an is creating a lean condition. Just put a 255 in there and be done with it, your going to need it, might as well get that out of the way and start eliminating things. Have you done a boost test yet????

Putting in a bigger fuel pump WILL NOT eliminate fuel cut.

[EVILUTION]

Well ..... it sounds more like a boost leak than a fuel problem. The MAF controls the injector duty cycle. If you are sucking in an ass load of air but leaking it out after the MAF the ECU doesn't know this. It will be hard to hold boost and your AFR will be very rich. If you are pig rich and shooting flames out the back as well as hitting MAF CUT then like I said before.....do a boost leak check it only takes 5 mintues on a DSM.

[TSi_II]

I'm on a 14b, not a lot of mods, but enough.

Well thanks for your help everyone... I'll be keepin myself busy this weekend, and I'm sure there's a leak somewhere in that maze of Greddy piping for the front mount... I'll let you know what I find and all that good stuff, I'm ordering a 255 and AFPR pretty soon..

[Pointdsm]

If you are hesitant on buying the aeromotive piece, i recomment the fullthrottlespeed bolt on AFPR, i just bought one and it is very nice, and they are on a deal right now. On the same note, i blew my 4th FPR tonight while driving to Janesville, so now my interior smells like gas, which will be great tuesday when i drive home to park this thing for the winter.

[EVILUTION]

How long ago was it when I told you to upgrade that F'ing thing!!??

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

If you are hesitant on buying the aeromotive piece, i recomment the fullthrottlespeed bolt on AFPR, i just bought one and it is very nice, and they are on a deal right now. On the same note, i blew my 4th FPR tonight while driving to Janesville, so now my interior smells like gas, which will be great tuesday when i drive home to park this thing for the winter.

I have never heard of anyone blowing the stock FPR. Were you running the stock FPR on a 255 Fuel pump???

[Pointdsm]

Hell ya i've been running the stock FPR on a 255. This one lasted me about 5 months though, but it sucks when the diaphram breaks, because then gas goes into the vaccum lines, and the boost gauge line(which goes into the interior). Evil - I know you told me to buy a AFPR, but this one lasted me all summer, and i wasted no money on anything, the stock FPR was 5 bucks.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

shouldn't have been running a 255 on a stock FPR. Did you do the re-wire kit for your fuel pump, because i have seen lots of people run 255's on stock FPR's and have never heard of them acctually breaking. One reason you shouldn't run the 255 with a stock FPR is because the 255 pumps sooo much fuel that the stock FPR cant ant keep up and ends up raising your fuel pressure and now your running rich.

[EVILUTION]

He's heard all that before.

[Pointdsm]

Yea, i knew exactly what i was doing but just never bought the stupid AFPR, but i actually break the diaphrams in the fpr. I do have the re-wired 255 too.

[devlish]

If you are hesitant on buying the aeromotive piece, i recomment the fullthrottlespeed bolt on AFPR, i just bought one and it is very nice, and they are on a deal right now. .

it looks nice! we should have done a group buy on that shit. Michael, if your interested, let me know and maybe we can get something going with some of the people on Tuners. Andy may need one too. i wouldn't mind one for Devlish next summer, then maybe i could get it tuned better finally and not worry about running 18psi so damn much.

i may need a new knock sensor though... i get knock at anything over 4psi. bad knock too! weird.

[Pointdsm]

I loved the shipping on it too, only took 3 days to get here for UPS ground. If anybody has anything, i'm looking for a SAFC-II, to replace my 5-knob, i just hate this old thing and want some that looks better and has knock and different throttle ranges to choose from, i just need something better, and used is better for me on this thing.

[TSi_II]

I'd be interested... Let me know if you start one up or if you find one that's worth it. I had an expensive mishap this weekend and funds are low, but if it's worth it I can hop in on it as well. Did you ever get around to finding that Walbro Kurt>?

[TomKat]

Why don't you just come over to the Honda side and forget all this crap about fuel cut - fuel pressure - fuel pumps - etc. - etc. - etc. Life is too short to be worried about crap like this all the time. :D

[EVILUTION]

....no worries when you are slow.

[TomKat]

Slow??? You want to match up against a Honda some time tough talker?

[devlish]

I'm pretty sure he tried to line up a match with a honda for himself all summer. if i remember correctly, the honda didn't have gas money? or am i incorrect?

[EVILUTION]

Which ricer wants to be another kill marker for Darth?

http://www.skysharkrc.com/shop/images/275.jpg

[TomKat]

Me, me, me.

[EVILUTION]

Seriously though....what honda is gonna run Darth?

[TomKat]

Insight. Type R.

[devlish]

i will... if we can go full contact racing and i get a one car lead.

[EVILUTION]

OOOOOooooookkkkkkkkaaaaaaayyyyyy

[devlish]

:D

[soup]

H22's are not dead yet. :)

[VPT]

H22's are gay, heavy no power having boat anchors. May as well be a d15.

[devlish]

i like my D15. i think.

[EVILUTION]

If I had a honda I would do this:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/128/im0004971fu1zt2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I'm not sure how they pull this off............

[devlish]

you would huh? interesting. that's look somewhat expensive and time intensive

[EVILUTION]

I guarantee its not as expensive as a new G35, IS350, or EVO9.

[VPT]

You like the k series huh?

[EVILUTION]

I actually like all the pictures of that car as well as the newer motors. It is very tastefully done. I even like the color. Most hondas are some shit color.

Speaking of costs.....If you have a minute to skim a thread.... this one helped me wait on buying an IS350. Just read what some of these guys are paying:
http://my.is/forums/showthread.php?t=165891

[TomKat]

I've heard that Lexus will take their used cars and crush them to keep the used priced up. :?

[EVILUTION]

Its working. Most are paying more than MSRP. For the most part, employees are getting a max of 3k off sticker.

But I have changed my mind anyway.....now I want this:

http://www.nihoncarandbike.com/news-323-X.html

[EVILUTION]

Here is a pic for Devlish:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8766/lexasve1.th.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lexasve1.jpg)

[VPT]

to much money for a kind of plain car. Spend that much it better be a lotus, vette, or something.

[EVILUTION]

to much money for a kind of plain car. Spend that much it better be a lotus, vette, or something.

Too much money for what car? The IS300, IS350, or IS500?

I agree the Lex is a bit costly for what you get but they sure are pretty.

[VPT]

to much money for a kind of plain car. Spend that much it better be a lotus, vette, or something.

Too much money for what car? The IS300, IS350, or IS500?

I agree the Lex is a bit costly for what you get but they sure are pretty.


Any of them. I like to stay under the 10k mark.