9-18-2011 Autocross at Golden Sands Raceway + Night Event

[TomKat]

9am - 10am Registration
10:30am - Drivers meeting

Location: Golden Sands Speedway
10992 State Hwy. 54
Wisconsin Rapids, WI 54494

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=UTF-8...-GMJGMNpvh4dAB

Information on the track:

http://www.gssraces.com/

We set up a pretty fast course on the steep banked oval so most cars will get into 3rd gear and a techincal section towards the finish line. Sandtraps and berms before anything solid to hit making for a car friendly location where it possible to push your car and driving to the limit without the worry of smashing your ride.

[TomKat]

Night event:

6pm - 7:15pm: Registration.
7:30pm: Drivers meeting.
7:45pm First Car Out.

An autocross in the dark. The cars headlights will be needed to light up the course making for a challenging event. Cones will have reflective tape and only one car on the course at a time. One car at a time on the course.

Cost: $15 for CWSCC or FVSCC members. $25 for non-members.

If you ran the day event: $5 for CWSCC or FVSCC members. $10 for non-members.

Amount of timed runs will depend on turnout, but it most likely will be less than the amount gotten during the day.

[snoxracer183]

I'm not going

[Caveman]

I will be there!

[99Cobra]

Sounds like someone is scared of a RSX.

[Shane]

not sure yet if i'll be there or not. Tires are not doing so hot after Shawano last weekend. not sure these crappy BFG's are performance worthy...

[TomKat]

not sure these crappy BFG's are performance worthy...

You'll just have to compensate with some great driving.

[TomKat]

I'm not going

Aren't you doing timing? We'll have to just write down the times on a sticker and post them up. Like the good old days before computers.

[rsxkid]

I'm not going

Pretty much what I expected all along...

[rsxkid]

When will the night event be done? I want to try it out but Ihave to be in Eau Claire Monday.

[snoxracer183]

I'm kidding. Why would I miss my chance to silence another little cocky Honda driver? Silly people.

[Shane]

You'll just have to compensate with some great driving.
Yea, im sure i could manage that :) Holly just told me she wants to race this weekend so maybe we'll be there.


I'm kidding. Why would I miss my chance to silence another little cocky Honda driver? Silly people.

I just need some RS3's and i'll shut you both up :cool:

[TomKat]

The night event will probably go until 10pm. All depends on the turnout and how many runs we do.

http://www.pbase.com/cdandar/image/105724428/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/cdandar/image/105163725/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/cdandar/image/105163727/original.jpg

[05Saab]

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/198688_10150334670979744_503279743_9563515_7219876 _n.jpg

http://hphotos-sjc1.fbcdn.net/281858_10150334679539744_503279743_9563566_7104496 _n.jpg

[TomKat]

Nice pictures Rober'.

[05Saab]

Should be able to make it for both day and night sessions. Won't be running my pile though.

[supradjza80]

This was a great event last year, but forecast is rain and the white supra is scared of rain.

[rsxkid]

Uh oh... Rain?

[KARKRAFT]

Really wish I didn't have to work. That night stuff looks fun.

[snoxracer183]

Uh oh... Rain?

scurred?

[Dizmm]

Uh oh... Rain?

My WRX is in my garage. go get it!

[99Cobra]

My WRX is in my garage. go get it!

Grab my tires and rims while your at it!

[snoxracer183]

My WRX is in my garage. go get it!

Wouldn't surprise me if he did. I mean, why not cheat again to win if no one is going to say anything right??

[rsxkid]

My WRX is in my garage. go get it!

:drool:

Wouldn't surprise me if he did. I mean, why not cheat again to win if no one is going to say anything right??

You're starting to sound like a real PAX pussy you know that? Scurred?

[DoWork]

Ugh....this just came to my attention. Now I'm scrambling to find a set of wheels/tires to use, and a babysitter lol

[snoxracer183]

:drool:



You're starting to sound like a real PAX pussy you know that? Scurred?

PAX? f*$k PAX. Let me go borrow a faster modified autox car then mmmkay?

[shaggy4267]

Borrowing a car because of rain?? LOL

AWD FTW!

[Dizmm]

Faster car? its slower, an STX car is much slower than a DSP car.

[snoxracer183]

Borrowing a car because of rain?? LOL

AWD FTW!

This ^^^

lol

[snoxracer183]

Faster car? its slower, an STX car is much slower than a DSP car.

Here we go with PAX talk again...:sneaky:

[shaggy4267]

This reminds me of the first 7sec of this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxwvIOBdKQ4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxwvIOBdKQ4)

LMFAO!

[rsxkid]

PAX? f*$k PAX. Let me go borrow a faster modified autox car then mmmkay?

90% driver 10% car... you sound awful worried...

[TomKat]

Remember FTD on PAX at this event gets a set of magnetic numbers. FTD raw get a can of Super Blue or Super Gold brake fluid.

Special prize for the winner of the RSX vs. WRX shootout.

[Draven8795]

I assume you will have loaner helmets there?

Guy from work wants to come out and ride along.

[Getsideways]

Wait RAW time still means something cool!

[TomKat]

We will have loaner helmets.

[supradjza80]

I like RAW time. Ride in the top 5 fastest PAX cars and the top 5 fastest RAW cars and tell me which ones you enjoy being in the most. Andy's WRX is pretty awesome in that it can win on RAW time and then oust's everyone in PAX. That is the benefit of building your car to the rules, but not necessarily enjoying your car the most.

[ZXTUNER]

hope the rain stops

[MX Bryan]

Rain = more fun : )....and lots of hit cones....

[VPT]

Rain isn't fun. I'd be there is everyone wasn't in SM.

[EVILUTION]

Is there going to be another GSS event this year? Isn't this one normally scheduled later in the year?

[ZXTUNER]

its sept guy how much later you want?

[TomKat]

We scheduled it earlier so that we'd have better weather (not so cold).

The weather held out for most of the day. Night runs were all in the rain.

Thanks everyone - I had a lot of fun today.

And. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You to those who competed in the night event. For not hitting cones on the wet, slippery, dark track. I think all night we only had 3 cones get hit total.

[northsydryd]

Rain isn't fun. I'd be there is everyone wasn't in SM.

you should have shown up...then maybe we could have had our own smf class...i brought a gang of dsms with me and they all drove home under their own power,although i was trying to make mine an exhibit at the junk yard museum,hahaha

[Deadly_Evolution]

Rain isn't fun. I'd be there is everyone wasn't in SM.

There are only a few cars in SM. That SM thing is has died down a lot.

[MX Bryan]

We scheduled it earlier so that we'd have better weather (not so cold).

The weather held out for most of the day. Night runs were all in the rain.

Thanks everyone - I had a lot of fun today.

And. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You to those who competed in the night event. For not hitting cones on the wet, slippery, dark track. I think all night we only had 3 cones get hit total.

All im gonna say is its a good thing mayhem wasnt there for the night event cuz that cone number would have quadrupled...

[VPT]

There are only a few cars in SM. That SM thing is has died down a lot.



I wonder if it is because everyone that was lumped into SM all these years are staying home?

Looking quick last year there were 41 entries for this event, how many this year?

[Deadly_Evolution]

I wonder if it is because everyone that was lumped into SM all these years are staying home?

Looking quick last year there were 41 entries for this event, how many this year?

Yesterdays turn out was not to great, cold, on and off rain, not to surprising. However even at most of the events I've been to for the past 2 years including events that our group was not normally part of.. there were less than a handful of SM cars every time. I think a lot has to do with the fact that newer cars don't need to be modded at much as and more and more people are running Prepared classes and stock classes.

[VPT]

That is a good point, there are more newer less modified cars.

[Dizmm]

there were a lot of other events going on this weekend too. NSTC in Milwaukee, CVSCC had an event in Eau Claire.

[snoxracer183]

We should pick a different event to do the night event at. No matter when we have it, it's cold and rainy. Maybe like the middle of July

[Caveman]

there were a lot of other events going on this weekend too. NSTC in Milwaukee, CVSCC had an event in Eau Claire.

Don't look at me. I drove almost 200 miles to be there!

[snoxracer183]

Don't look at me. I drove almost 200 miles to be there!

Thanks for coming. You, Megan, and Katie made one heck of a course!

[Draven8795]

Thanks for coming. You, Megan, and Katie made one heck of a course!

I did like that course. Now if I only knew how to shift gears.

[snoxracer183]

I did like that course. Now if I only knew how to shift gears.

a downshift for slow corners if 3rd to 2nd Mr. Mike....not 3rd to 4th :cool:

[snoxracer183]

Where are the results? Especially the night event results Mr. Dizmm? :)

[Dizmm]

Where are the results? Especially the night event results Mr. Dizmm? :)

you musta not saved them right, i cant find them.

[rsxkid]

How did the night event go? I wish I would have stuck around for it, 10 west was flooded last night so I stayed the night in Marshfield.

I agree it'd be awesome to do the night event earlier on in the summer on a nice warm non rainy night lol

[Draven8795]

a downshift for slow corners if 3rd to 2nd Mr. Mike....not 3rd to 4th :cool:

Haha fair enough. That was a really good run till that happened. I was braking to much to down shift smoothly at other parts of the track. Dont want to just jam it in.

[KARKRAFT]

Haha fair enough. That was a really good run till that happened. I was braking to much to down shift smoothly at other parts of the track. Dont want to just jam it in.

Rev match.

[Draven8795]

Rev match.


That's what i meant by learning how to shift. I can't get my feet in the right spots in on the pedals to keep the ball of my foot on the brake and then hit the gas with my heel and I'm not confident enough to only have half my foot on the brake and the other half hitting the gas.

I try and do it on the road normal driving but its not the same.

[plainrt]

That's what i meant by learning how to shift. I can't get my feet in the right spots in on the pedals to keep the ball of my foot on the brake and then hit the gas with my heel and I'm not confident enough to only have half my foot on the brake and the other half hitting the gas.

I try and do it on the road normal driving but its not the same.


What kind of shoes you wear to events? A proper shoe can help with this.

[TomKat]

What kind of shoes you wear to events? A proper shoe can help with this.

Cowboy boots. What other foot apparel would you wear to an autocross?

July night event. Don't forget it doesn't get dark until 9:30pm in the summer. That won't work.

[supradjza80]

July night event. Don't forget it doesn't get dark until 9:30pm in the summer. That won't work.

Can I stay up late? Please Dad?

Can we ever do Saturday events? Late night on a Saturday would be ok right?

[05Saab]

Can I stay up late? Please Dad?

Can we ever do Saturday events? Late night on a Saturday would be ok right?

Haha

I agree on the Sat night thing.

[TomKat]

We could do an event with registration on Saturday at 11pm and the first car out at midnight. I don't think the neighbors would appreciate that though.

Or we could do a Saturday event during the day. Then a night event. Hmmm. Saturday events usually have crappy turnouts.

The day and the night event have to be on the same day. Track insurance is good for 24 hours of the day the certificate is for.

[supradjza80]

I would prefer Saturday Events I think. But I will do events anyday. Saturday Ice events seem to work out well.

Maybe this event could be the only Saturday exception? When I did the Night event last year I got home awfully late on a school night. :)

[rsxkid]

We could do an event with registration on Saturday at 11pm and the first car out at midnight. I don't think the neighbors would appreciate that though.

Or we could do a Saturday event during the day. Then a night event. Hmmm. Saturday events usually have crappy turnouts.

The day and the night event have to be on the same day. Track insurance is good for 24 hours of the day the certificate is for.


ahh.. nevermind read that wrong... only good for *the 24 hours of the day it's bought for* not 24 hour period.

[EVILUTION]

Is there going to be another GSS event for the "normal weekend" later in the year?

[Getsideways]

It seems all the sunday events have been a crappy turnout anyway, i know i could much easier make a saturday event then sunday , that would be neat to just try it if anything .
It might actually work since you wouldnt have very many conflicting schedules with other clubs . although i do know a few people from our club work some saturdays.

[TomKat]

neat to just try it if anything .


I agree. You should bring that up at the next random CWSCC meeting.

I wrote it down for the Oct. meeting.

Evil - I'd love to do another event at GSS in October. Money/turnout constraints would make that difficult. Another thing to discuss at the random Oct. meeting.

[Deadly_Evolution]

That's what i meant by learning how to shift. I can't get my feet in the right spots in on the pedals to keep the ball of my foot on the brake and then hit the gas with my heel and I'm not confident enough to only have half my foot on the brake and the other half hitting the gas.

I try and do it on the road normal driving but its not the same.

So lets go out and I'll teach ya how and give it some practice. That's how we all learned (the practice part) It feels super unnatural but after a while if just doing it every time you down shift on the street it becomes second nature.

[Draven8795]

So lets go out and I'll teach ya how and give it some practice. That's how we all learned (the practice part) It feels super unnatural but after a while if just doing it every time you down shift on the street it becomes second nature.

Works for me. I've been tempted to get some different shoes so I could try and use my heal but like you said just using that technique all the time would probably make a huge difference.

[TomKat]

Watch Initial D. That show will teach you how to heel - toe.

[Deadly_Evolution]

When I was first heard the term, I had to go and look it up on youtube and watched someone explain how to do it, and WHY you need to do it. Not everyone gets why you need to be able to this at first so they just figure, to hell with it.

Then I just sat in my car with it off and kept going through the motions till they felt somewhat normal or at least enough that I could do it without thinking about every motion. Next step was trying it out just driving around normally, progressively getting higher up in the rpms and harder on the brakes. Thankfully the STi is set up well for heel to toe, some cars are NOT, and nearly impossible to heal to just due to space and pedal lay out.

Just let me know when Mike.

[Dizmm]

start with rev match downshifts. learn to be SMOOOOTH. the key is to not even feel the downshift. Once you get that, then learn to try it while braking.

[SgtRauksauff]

What really sucks is when your pedals are so close together that if you hit the brake, you can hit the clutch AND gas at the same time if you do it right (wrong).

I got a set of shoes to wear for autoX/track days that I rarely wear, just because they are so much thinner than what I'm used to during normal driving that it messes up my foot controls.

I usually use the ball of my foot on the brake, and let the right-side of my foot do the heel part, since I can't actually rotate my foot around to use the heel because of the space that isn't there.

Like Dizmm said, smooth is key!

--sarge

[Deadly_Evolution]

I just went into it right off the get go, to rev match while turning and or braking since that is where you will actually use it. You just don't need to go at threshold braking till you get it down. Mike made a comment about having a hard time grasping doing all of this while hard braking, which is why I also suggested attacking it head on from the start.
Another thing I notice is when people go about it the other way around they tend to "cheat" and not heal toe at all but that lazy rev match where you coast and tap or double tap the gas normally and down shift.

[TomKat]

Heel toeing is not something you have to do. It is a lot easier on the transmission and clutch though.

Once you start doing it thought it's a lot of fun.

[Dizmm]

Heel toeing is not something you have to do. It is a lot easier on the transmission and clutch though.

Once you start doing it thought it's a lot of fun.

There are 2 reasons for Heal/Toe downshifts,

1) drivetrain/clutch

2) less upsetting the suspension (braking) during maximum grip.

[Deadly_Evolution]

There are 2 reasons for Heal/Toe downshifts,

1) drivetrain/clutch

2) less upsetting the suspension (braking) during maximum grip.

I remember Tylers quartermaster would grab so hard if you did not rev match during a down shift that it would lock up the wheels for brief moments.

[snoxracer183]

It just sounds cool coming to a stop while driving in town too :)

[Dizmm]

I remember Tylers quartermaster would grab so hard if you did not rev match during a down shift that it would lock up the wheels for brief moments.

yup, and even more important on a RWD car.

[TomKat]

Shift lock oversteer.

Great for drifting a RWD car.

[05Saab]

Another thing I notice is when people go that lazy rev match where you coast and tap or double tap the gas normally and down shift.

I kindof do this. But not really lazy. Seems to have worked fine for me while daily driving anyways. I did have a bit of a harder time when I drove Andy's Evo or Katie's STi, even the Duster. But still seemed fairly smooth, without heel-toe. But I'm sure I could've shaved off a bit of time if proper heal-toe was used, in order to maximize (or minimize) braking distance

[Deadly_Evolution]

After learning how to heal toe.. I can't imagine not heal toeing at this point. There should be some of those banners.
"Ever time you fail to heal toe, god kills a kitten".

[mrslysly]

I kindof do this. But not really lazy. Seems to have worked fine for me while daily driving anyways. I did have a bit of a harder time when I drove Andy's Evo or Katie's STi, even the Duster. But still seemed fairly smooth, without heel-toe. But I'm sure I could've shaved off a bit of time if proper heal-toe was used, in order to maximize (or minimize) braking distance


The duster and especially the vette are not easy to heel-toe in because the pedals have a good distance between them and are not anywhere close to the same height. I can do it proficiently in the duster but only because I have room to crank my leg to do it. The only heel-toe I can manage in the vette is a slight sideways roll of my foot and then brake control becomes difficult.

I found that heel-toe wasn't necessary at all in the duster as the fastest line didn't require immediate changes from braking to throttle. This in part is due to the excessive amount of weight transfer over the front tires. You can't throw that car around at shawano, you had to minimize weight shift on the front end to keep as much speed as possible. Gotta love stock suspension with a few tweaks :p

Damn these cars not built for tall people.

[Draven8795]

I was in third gear going around the bottom edge of the track coming back around to the start. I lost a lot of time coming out of the turn because i needed to downshift to second to make it around the cone back into that slalom and didn't want to just smash it into second.

[KARKRAFT]

I'm pretty sure my "heel toe" technique is all wrong, but it works. Every car is different, but most cars I use the middle of my foot on the brake with my foot turned to the right and my toes on the gas. I have messed up legs, they just won't turn the other way.

[snoxracer183]

Having size 14 shoes helps...maybe grow your feet some. Or just wear biggers shoes. I have no problems spanning the distance from brake to gas pedal

[Caveman]

What's all this talk about heel/toe? I run an automatic transmission. Problem solved!

[TomKat]

I've tried braking with my heel then blipping with my toes. It isn't natural and it didn't work for shit for me. Brake with the ball of your foot then try and twist your heel around to do the blip. I can't really twist my foot that much. I mostly roll my foot onto the gas.

Watching videos of race drivers footwork while driving really helpful.

[TomKat]

The duster and especially the vette are not easy to heel-toe in .

My Z06 was the easiest car I've ever driven to heel toe. Maybe the pedals are set up differently in the Z06.

[TomKat]

What's all this talk about heel/toe? I run an automatic transmission. Problem solved!

LOL. But a good point. With new technology heel toeing will soon be a thing of the past.

Paddle shifted manual transmissions. 370 automatic rev match downshift.

[rsxkid]

I'm a throttle blipper but I don't like to think of it as lazy it just works well. May not be proper though just what I've always done..

Not to sound like a total ricer but from reading up on pedals a while back, well designed aftermarket pedals realign the pedals to make heel and toe easier. I had debated on some Mugen replica pedals for a while just because of that.

[Deadly_Evolution]

I've tried braking with my heel then blipping with my toes. It isn't natural and it didn't work for shit for me. Brake with the ball of your foot then try and twist your heel around to do the blip. I can't really twist my foot that much. I mostly roll my foot onto the gas.

Watching videos of race drivers footwork while driving really helpful.

You're right.. It should be called toe to heel, as I use the ball of my foot the brake and my heal to blip throttle for rev match. Some cars seem to require a toe, side roll? Ha I hate those set ups.

[shaggy4267]

With large feet, I use the side roll. Pedals are close together so no need to twist my ski. lol I have thought about different shoes to get more room.

[supradjza80]

I heel/toe all the time on the track (especially big tracks with real braking zones where you drop multiple gears). On the street I just lazy rev match. I have found it is normally easier to heal toe the faster you are slowing the car. Braking slowly and heal toeing is kinda pointless and not as easy but still possible.

[Draven8795]

I heel/toe all the time on the track (especially big tracks with real braking zones where you drop multiple gears). On the street I just lazy rev match. I have found it is normally easier to heal toe the faster you are slowing the car. Braking slowly and heal toeing is kinda pointless and not as easy but still possible.

This is my problem its just not the same on the street I guess I could just come to a really fast stop everywhere haha.

In the sti I have to ball of the foot the brake but side step the gas not heel it.

[supradjza80]

Well I didn't say it was impossible to do it slowly, but its not really the point of doing heel toe (low speed braking).

I would just work on doing proper rev matches without braking (like Dizmm said smooth is what you are looking for, absolutely no drivetrain shock from the down shift). Once you are a pro at this, I would start practicing the heal toe thing on an empty country road where you can go 80-90 miles per hour, brake down to 50-60 and grab 2nd and rev match without getting off the brakes (make sure you are going slow enough to not over rev the engine). Try to be able to do this just as smoothly as you did just the rev match downshifts in part one. Its easier to get the hang of threshold braking, rev matching, and down shifting without having to worry about any turning. Then try doing the light heal toe at all stop signs if you feel you still need more practice. Once you are confident with all this start doing it at the track, its easy. I learned on a 1996 Nissan Maxima SE which had terrible pedal placement. The Supra's and Audi are surprisingly good for pedal placement. Also when done properly the shifter slides into gear just as easily as shifting between gears like a grandma, so there is no need to horse the shifter into gear. Its all about timing.

[Caveman]

Here's an in-car video of my best run of the day (42.06 seconds).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEd03keAAu0

Jim
2000 Z28 Camaro w/some extras

[Mr. Fuji]

I agree. You should bring that up at the next random CWSCC meeting.

I wrote it down for the Oct. meeting.

Evil - I'd love to do another event at GSS in October. Money/turnout constraints would make that difficult. Another thing to discuss at the random Oct. meeting.

Im for Sundays!

[TomKat]

Im for Sundays!

Sundays are definitely better because a lot of peolple have to work on Saturday, but we might make an exception. I think a Saturday night event would be better attended.

Maybe you could swing by after work and just do the night portion.

[snoxracer183]

I think a Saturday night under the track lights would be fun too

[TomKat]

I think a Saturday night under the track lights would be fun too

Defeats the whole purpose of doing a night event.

If we did this event mid summer there would be good light until 9pm. We could do sunlight runs starting a 7pm with late night runs (after 9:30) in the dark.

[snoxracer183]

Driving under the lights adds a whole different feel. At least it did racing snowmobiles. I'm not trying to say racing under the lights is the same was what we currently do of doing it in the dark. Just another option as an AutoX under the lights would be fun.

[Draven8795]

Well this is kind of stupid but I figured out why I was having an impossible time of trying to "heal toe" in the STi.

My seat was pumped up to much.

Now I just have to practice through a few tanks of gas.

[rsxkid]

does anyone have pictures from this event?

[snoxracer183]

It's different from region to region. I've done autocross all over the country and I've never seen a club that gave payouts.

Oh yeah!...pay me for winning!

[EVILUTION]

Now is the time of year I would like to have some GSS action. I wish we could set up some late in the year events. I was disappointed that the GSS event was launched so much earlier this year. I really think it affected turn out as well.

[TomKat]

I was disappointed that the GSS event was launched so much earlier this year. I really think it affected turn out as well.

Yeah the warm weather was just terrible this year.

You should have attended the meeting tonight to suggest a late season event.

[EVILUTION]

It's not the warm weather but rather the scheduling conflicts that warmer weather contributes to. Honestly I'd rather race in Oct/Nov than June/July as I hate wearing a helmet and doing work when it's stupid hot. The entire last month has been perfect for GSS/MSS style events.

I had asked for a end of season event twice in this thread. It was supposed to be brought up in the random Oct meeting. What ever happened to the large parking lot in Merrill?

[TomKat]

What ever happened to the large parking lot in Merrill?

Fizzled.

We could try an event at State Park Speedway. I wonder what kind of turnout we'd get?

[99Cobra]

Looking at google maps SPS doesn't have a paved infield at all.

[TomKat]

Looking at google maps SPS doesn't have a paved infield at all.

When was the photo taken?

Or half pavment half dirt event. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

[99Cobra]

http://maps.google.com/maps?um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=state+park+speedway+wausau+wi&fb=1&gl=us&hq=state+park+speedway+wausau+wi&hnear=state+park+speedway+wausau+wi&cid=0,0,10636183322112489563&ei=73m5TvL-OKSGsAKena3gCA&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&ved=0CAcQ_BI

I'm not sure when the sat photo was taken.

[TomKat]

We should just go there and check it out.

[EVILUTION]

I really likes the dells. That venue could be made much larger than just the circle track area.

[snoxracer183]

The infield of of State Park Speedway was turned into nice grass this year, I doubt they would let us rip it up....

[TomKat]

I really likes the dells. That venue could be made much larger than just the circle track area.

How would you do that?

[SgtRauksauff]

if they'd let us tear up the gravel/grass around the outside, but I betcha they won't. because we turn right.

[EVILUTION]

Start the timed runs where tech normally is and run the entire internal parking area.

[TomKat]

Start the timed runs where tech normally is and run the entire internal parking area.

I like that idea, but the insurance company would have other things to say about that.

[EVILUTION]

You guys and your insurance company issues. There must be something better out there.

[VPT]

Race at own risk. Insurance ruins everything including the economy.