Redline Time Attack @ Autobahn June 12-13th

[05Saab]

I am planning on going to check it out on the 12th. Just spectate and try to get some good pics. Seems like a cool event, with a bunch of different cars.

Paul Walker (Fast and Furious) even competes in Redline. He drives a new M3.

https://redlinetimeattack.com/ul/images/autobahn/rd5_poster.jpg

[DontStopMe]

Andy, are you still going to participate in this event? Or was that in July?

[TomKat]

Big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to compete in one of those events.

[EVILUTION]

I like that the Redline events let you do a flying lap. I would attend more timed events if they didn't force you to run cold. My car is setup for endurance and not for a single lap quickness. A studder box launch followed by pushing the envelope on cold tires just doesn't appeal to me at all.

I heard that the Brainerd event was going to have a warm up lap prior to the timed hot lap. If that is the case I can't wait to get there.

[Dizmm]

I heard that the Brainerd event was going to have a warm up lap prior to the timed hot lap. If that is the case I can't wait to get there.

where did you year that?


hot lapping is for cheaters.

[Dizmm]

I wont be at the redline time attack, i'd have to completely re mod my car to fit into their classing. maybe next years car will be setup better for this.

[northsydryd]

anyone else have 1 of these signs? or did 1 of my idiot friends steal it?

[EVILUTION]

where did you year that?


hot lapping is for cheaters.

I'll go back and look but it was on EVOM when the event was first listed. I remember it because I thought "finally a high speed autox done right".

It's not hot lapping like a NASA event. It's one warm up lap and then a flying lap. The warm up lap allows you to get tires up to temp/pressure and bring your pads into their efficiency window.

I dislike the BHF's autox. They give you a couple four lap fun runs that are so congested with traffic that it doesn't provide anything at all. They would be better off adding the warm up lap and just plain racing all day.

If done correctly Brainerd should be a significant improvement.

[TomKat]

I dislike the BHF's autox. They give you a couple four lap fun runs that are so congested with traffic that it doesn't provide anything at all. They would be better off adding the warm up lap and just plain racing all day.

If done correctly Brainerd should be a significant improvement.

I don't agree. I like the Council HSAX events. They were going to do hot laps timed, but transponders would have to used and that would add $50 to the entry fee. No thanks. I like the fact that you are at a dead stop and have to launch when entering the track. It's fun.

[EVILUTION]

I'm not saying it's not fun. Hell I enjoy something as meaningless as a high speed freeway entrance and off ramp!

I think it would be more interesting to know your flying lap time. I think it could be done without the use of transponders kind of like fox valley does it and it would eat up that much more time.

Are you providing transponders at Brainerd?

[EVILUTION]

^ Never mind..... MAP deleted their original post and modified it yesterday. Seems like fox valley fucked up yet another event. I wish people would leave well enough alone.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/modern-automotive-performance/495504-maperformance-2nd-annual-sport-compact-proving-grounds-june-26-27-brainerd-mn.html

I would like to address some concerns that I have seen popping up on our new format of "High Speed Autox." Yes this will still be run on the 2.5 mile competition road course. The main difference that you will see between the Time Attack format and High Speed Autox is that instead of doing a chunk of 5 laps (1 warm up, 3 flying, and 1 cool down) it will be one lap at a time. This will allow us to utilize the experience of the Central Wisconsin Sports Car Club / Fox Valley Sports Car Club along with their timing equipment in a familiar format that is certain to be a success. Please feel free to express further concerns or ask questions. I follow these topics closely in the forums, or feel free to e-mail me at blake@maperformance.com.

[Getsideways]

it will still be a flying lap if things go as planned prob. not a FULL warm up lap though

[Dizmm]

haha, stay at home jeffro! or better yet, call the WAAAAMbulance.

[Dizmm]

I'm not saying it's not fun. Hell I enjoy something as meaningless as a high speed freeway entrance and off ramp!

I think it would be more interesting to know your flying lap time. I think it could be done without the use of transponders kind of like fox valley does it and it would eat up that much more time.

Are you providing transponders at Brainerd?

to do flying lap times, you need transponders, no other way is possible unless we do 1 car at a time.

[Pointdsm]

it will still be a flying lap if things go as planned prob. not a FULL warm up lap though

Assuming you will be sending cars out on the back of the course. You get a half lap to warm up, then a flying lap, and return to the pits on the back of the course. This would work GREAT if BHF's had a rear track entrance area that is straight.

[TomKat]

Are you providing transponders at Brainerd?

For $2,500.00 they will rent us some. Write us a check and we'll get transponders.

Besides the cost none of us has any experience with that type of event. Haven't even been to one.

[Dizmm]

evil just likes to ride the whambulance.

if we did redline time attack style, he'd be complaining about the traffic he'd hit during his 5 laps. if we do high speed auto-x, he complains that he doesnt have warm tires. it all really doesnt matter, not like he would come anyways.

[EVILUTION]

^ If riding the "Whambulance" (original BTW) means speaking my mind then I guess I get a free ride. I'm not a push over like the rest of the slow ass club ball swingers. I would simply like to try something different. Something that has been extremely popular such as the redline time attack.

You guys complain the club is making too much money. Then you complain that transponders would cost too much. You run multiple cars at an autox then say its impossible at a lapping day. You continue to charge people to race then assign them as a corner work during the event. Meanwhile there are other people attending that didn't pay at all and have been cough "testing and tuning" the course for days.

Because of this, I won't be attending any FVSCC events. I will treat that club just like WIR. I don't think I'll miss much since it's always the same damn thing anyway.

[Dizmm]

^ sure is easy to talk a bunch of Bull-Shit but then when its time for evil to man up and do a little work its always crickets. I'd love to see evil try to run some of these events, and see all the back end work involved.

One of my biggest pet peeves is people complaining about stuff but then never taking any action to resolve the issue. This is a prime example, just like people complaining about not having money but then always down at the bars spending the little they have on booze.

[EVILUTION]

I don't want to hear about how much work it is. You are the one the joined the club. You are the one that volunteered to be a board member. It comes with the territory.

I was excited to hear that MAP was correctly going to run a time attack. Now I am disappointed to hear there has been a change of plans due to the intrusive over sold claims of some club.

Many of the California clubs run strictly time attack events because more than 50% of track down time was caused by cold tire accidents or hard launch equipment failures and clean up. I've seen this at BHFs as well.

[the-moss]

Jeff, running a light based timing system how would you run a time attack with more than a single car on track at a time?

[EVILUTION]

There are a handful of different ways but even with the oldest of systems you send one car out for its warm up and once it begins its timed run the second one could hit the track after timing light. This would be extra ordinarily easy at BHFs since they have a perfect setup for it. The timing gear doesn't always have to be at the bridge.

If the scientists working the event think that's too much work then it would be even easier to run a single car at a time. Eliminate the 4 lap cluster fuck that does nothing for anyone and give everyone 2 laps during the timed events running them all day.

I suspect most people would prefer to simply buy or rent a transponder. It's not like they are too expensive.

But my focus is not on the BHFs event but rather the recently changed MAP event.

[Dizmm]

Many of the California clubs run strictly time attack events because more than 50% of track down time was caused by cold tire accidents or hard launch equipment failures and clean up. I've seen this at BHFs as well.

Have you ever been to a High speed auto-x before???

There is no possibly way to run a time attack style without transponders. Not to mention in 5 laps the odds of hitting traffic is very good. that alone would cause many delays.

don’t give me this, “oh you joined the club and you take on all responsibilities.” that’s a crock of shit. This is a non-profit CLUB. If I were doing this as a business it would be a different story.

All these harsh comments from you Jeff but never once seen you at a meeting or at an event early (or late) to help setup/cleanup.

[the-moss]

There are a handful of different ways but even with the oldest of systems you send one car out for its warm up and once it begins its timed run the second one could hit the track after timing light. This would be extra ordinarily easy at BHFs since they have a perfect setup for it. The timing gear doesn't always have to be at the bridge.

If the scientists working the event think that's too much work then it would be even easier to run a single car at a time. Eliminate the 4 lap cluster fuck that does nothing for anyone and give everyone 2 laps during the timed events running them all day.

I suspect most people would prefer to simply buy or rent a transponder. It's not like they are too expensive.

But my focus is not on the BHFs event but rather the recently changed MAP event.

I don't think it matters which track it is on a closed course you have a start finish light at some point on the track (but for sake of argument we will call it the start finish line). As the a car crosses this line it triggers a lap end and a lap start.

Also for the sake of argument we will say that we have a 2 car time attack and they get 2 flying laps per run.

So car 1 leaves the pits, completes a warm up lap and crosses the light, this triggers lap end (no problem because no time is running) and a lap start. 1 time in the system

Car 2 leaves the pits and heads out on it's warm up lap.

Car 1 completes its first flying lap, triggers a lap finish, and lap start (1 good time recorded, 1 time running, 1 car on flying lap, 1 car on warm up lap)

Car 2 completes its warm up lap and starts its 1st flying lap, triggering lap finish (ending Car 1's 2nd flying lap and recording a bad time), and lap start (1 time running, 2 cars on flying lap)

Car 1 completes its 2nd flying lap - triggers lap finish (ending car 2's 1st flying lap time, recording a bad time), and lap start (1 time running, 1 car on flying lap, 1 car on cool down lap).

Car 2 completes its first flying lap - triggers lap finish (ending the lap car 1 started, recording a bad time), and lap start (1 time running, 1 car on flying lap, 1 car on cool down lap).

Car 1 pulls off track without crossing the line (1 time running, 1 car on flying lap)

Car 2 completes its second flying lap - triggers lap finish (ending its 2nd flying lap, good time recorded), lap start (1 time running, 1 car on cool down lap).

Car 2 pulls off course. Track is cold, timer is running.


So you can see that with multiple cars on course you get a lot of bad time recordings. In fact if this was extended to a 3 car time attack, car 2 would not record a single good time. Good times are only recorded when there is a single car on course.

[snoxracer183]

Good explanation.

Evil now start promoting the CWSCC events at Marshfield, Golden Sands, and Shawano lapping days to help us make some money so we might be able to buy transponders

[TomKat]

I suspect most people would prefer to simply buy or rent a transponder. It's not like they are too expensive.

.

Council researched this and was going to do this. It would add about $50 to the entry fee.

Too much for me, but I'm sure there are some people who would pony up.

[TomKat]

There are a handful of different ways but even with the oldest of systems you send one car out for its warm up and once it begins its timed run the second one could hit the track after timing light. This would be extra ordinarily easy at BHFs since they have a perfect setup for it. The timing gear doesn't always have to be at the bridge.
.

No. We tried this at Shawano it was a miserable failure. Next Shawano lapping day maybe Jethrow can show us how it's done. Since it's so easy.

[EVILUTION]

Dizmm, Yes I have. I've also been to plenty events picking up debris, sweeping, and recovering cones.

Alex... not exactly. Basic setup with single beam same position start/stop.

One warm up lap. One flying lap.

Car one leaves pits and doesn't break the beam. It makes its warm up lap and as it approaches the front straight it breaks the beam which is positioned prior to pit out. At this point its running its timed lap.

Immediately after the car passes the pits car two is released for its warm up lap. Again it doesn't break the light.

As car one breaks light again it captures it's flying lap time. Then car two breaks its flying lap start time. Then the third car is released. This cycle continues.

Anyway.... I'm done discussing how it can be done as it could be done much more efficiently with transponders. I for one would have no issues about purchasing my own for use at all events.

I guess I'm a minority once again.

[the-moss]

Yeah that would work, but at probably about 1:30 between launches at blackhawk. If you had 90 cars you'd be looking at sitting for 2 hours between runs.

[TomKat]

If Jethrow was so interested in flying timed laps how come he hasn't gone to any NASA or Redline Time Attack events?

Has anyone from Point gone to an event like that? Nobody can afford one of those events.

[Dizmm]

Jeff and VPT should hook up, seems they just like to complain on the internet and never show up to an event or meeting.

the one car at a time would take forever. instead of 6-8 times runs you'd only get 2-3 at the most. at the BHF high speed auto-x's I was getting 10+ cars on track at once.

[SgtRauksauff]

I think flying timed laps would work, actually. Might take a little bit of thought and work to make it super-efficient, but it's really not that bad, unless I'm missing something...

Magnetic mounted transponders.

Say, five of them, maybe 10.

The person (or two) at Grid under the bridge is no longer a redundant position. Each transponder is unique, so the system already understands that it's not the same one crossing the line each time.

The person at grid sticks a transponder onto the next person leaving. After that person's cool-down lap, they come in, the grid person takes it off. This also makes a very good way to have discussions with drivers that break the blend line, or have their sunroof open, or have illegible numbers, or whatnot.

"Car 86, transponder 1". "Car 45, Transponder 2" "Car 150, Transponder 3", ...track loads up, et cetera... Car 86 comes in, transponder gets removed, "Car 59, Transponder 1".... "Car 426, Transponder 2"...

Similar to how start at AX calls in the car number to timing.

Sorta like they do at TRH or Fudd's, with the table/order-ready buzzers. finite number of buzzers, they just rotate.

I personally don't think it should increase fees, at least for Council events. Council has buku bucks in the bank, since the financial load of every event comes from individual clubs, but the council itself still gets a cut.. they should consider it an investment in operating equipment, like the safety vehicles and communications gear.

That's my idea. Don't see why it wouldn't work. hell, we could even do super-suction cup mounts instead of magnet mounts, because a bunch of namby-pamby whiners will think their paint'll get scratched. (or they have fiberglass cars, so magnets wont work anyways.

or velcro straps or zipties, or whatever.

--sarge

[EVILUTION]

I gave the most simple example possible. Certainly with better timing equipment and more appropriately matched lap times more vehicles could be on track. However using beams instead of RF isn't the recommended approach. It seems all enhancement requests and non standard discussion will be met with resistance. At least these guys are consistent.

Dizmm BRAVO! on getting 10 cars on track at one time. I'm not knocking how the BHF's event was held as that wasn't advertised as a time attack and then downgraded. I'm sure plenty of people are satisfied with the cold start lap time. Keep up the good work.

[TomKat]

Even with transponders people on hot laps will encounter traffic. Then the bellyachers will start bitching.

Never been to an event with hot timed laps. I'd like to see how other clubs do it.

[EVILUTION]

I like to see the times. Its fun to play chase during an HPDE but it's easy to follow someone else's line. It would be nice to see how your clean lap time compares to your buddies without using the lead car as a pace car.

The reason I don't like the cold start is because I dislike launching the car hard and I don't like to push the limits of adhesion with tires that are constantly changing temp/grip during the first lap.

Maybe the SCCA is the hot ticket. They have less cars on track and they use transponders. Most people say they get more than enough track time with less traffic and open passing.

[snoxracer183]

I would be all for flying laps with transponders (not beams). Initial cost is high but it can be recovered with a small increase in entry fee. $50 extra an event for transponders seems way to high. In snowmobile racing, transponder rental was an extra $15 a weekend or $125 to buy your own.

[Dizmm]

It seems all enhancement requests and non standard discussion will be met with resistance. At least these guys are consistent.

HA, I have been welcoming you to come out and show me how you plan to make this work. I've been telling you to come to meetings, show up at events early, but again, crickets. stay at home evil.

its always easy to complain about something, but harder to do something about it.

[Dizmm]

It sounds a bit like your tune is changing evil. no way for us to do a Redline time attack style of 1 warm up lap, 3 timed laps, and 1 cool down.

However, now your talking about only one warm up lap and one timed lap, in which we have done events kind of like that before. We've done a long running start at shawano before, and it worked out good. Only thing is, we cant do a full lap. there has to be a separate set of starting eyes and finish eyes.

since you've created such a fuss, i've even took the time to draw out how we plan to run this high speed auto-x.

The highlighted yellow is where we send the car. as you can see he/she will get a running start before they trip the starting eyes. when you finish you have to go through the little kink the trip the finish eyes, this will also slow down the car enough so he/she can enter the pits on their left.
http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s330/Dizmm/Capture-1.jpg