Should we try a new classing method for one event next summer?

[VPT]

Like the title says, should fvscc/cwscc try out a new classing method for at least just one event this coming 2010 season or no?

Scca bases its rules and classes on parking lot events. We don't race in parking lots.



VPT's class method:

Class 1. FWD street tire
Class 2. FWD r-compound tire
Class 3. AWD Street tire
Class 4. AWD r-compound tire
Class 5. RWD street tire
Class 6. RWD r-compound tire

[05Saab]

Classes really don't make a difference to me, but I dont see why we can't try something different. Maybe it would help me be closer to the field, instead of being like 10 seconds behind in the SM class.

[Dizmm]

scca does not do just parking lot autocrossing.

try fvscc.com if you would like to make a request to the FVSCC club.

[Dizmm]

How about the Midwestern Council's classing:

Point Assessment Schedule
The point assessment schedule will be used to place a vehicle into the proper category when any modifications are made to the
vehicle. "Bumping" of a vehicle will occur when certain modifications are judged to offer a competitive advantage to other
vehicles in the prescribed category. Points are assessed at technical inspection for such modifications. The addition of
modification points, including Stock Assessment Points (SPA) within the Classification List, if any, is used to determine when a
vehicle is to be bumped to a higher category:

Total Points assessed determines Category
0-2 Stays in Stock Category
3-7 Bump to Prepared Category
8-17 Bump to Modified Category
18 and over move to Race or Street Class

Dealer-installed options that are not available from the factory are considered vehicle modifications from the base model. The
modifications should be assessed appropriate points as listed. Points will be assessed at tech as follows:

Points Today Tires, Wheels and Suspension
3 Tires with a wear rating less than 140
1 Change of rim width, per full inch increment of increase
1,2 Change of rim diameter, per full inch increment (up to 15" = 1; greater than 15" = 2)
1 Suspension bushing replacement, excluding sway bars and shock absorbers
1,1 Sway bar revision or addition: Front=1; Rear=1
2 Change of spring rate
2 Other/additional suspension modification, including panhard or track bar
1 Camber plates or other alignment hardware enhancement or changes
1 Chassis stiffening (per each system)
2 Brake conversion, including LB1 option

Engine
1 Engine displacement change (per each 3% increase)
2 Engine swap, except for exact replacement of original
1 Removal or tampering with emission control device, per device
1 Removal of catalytic converter(s)
1 Intake manifold change or adaptor without carb or fuel injection change
2 Carburetor or fuel injection revision on stock manifold
3 Carburetor or fuel injection revision with non-stock manifold
1 Air intake modification (air box) excluding filter element change
2 Camshaft change
2 Valve size change and/or head modifications
4 Port Modification (rotary engine)
2 Ignition and/or computer module change (normally aspirated engine)
4 Ignition and/or computer module change (turbo or supercharged engine)
1 Exhaust manifold change
2 Open exhaust and/or muffler removal
1 Exhaust system enhancement (beyond manifold and converter changes)
1 Accessory drive revisions, including underdrive pulleys
3 Turbo/supercharger system modification or replacement: includes any non- “computer” based mod
related to boost control; does NOT include engine computer module points
4 Turbocharger or supercharger addition, not including Intercooler
3 Intercooler change or replacement
4 Intercooler addition

Other
2 Final gear ratio change less than or equal to 20% (from stock or factory-delivered option)
3 Gear ratio change greater than 20% (from stock or factory-delivered option)
2 Limited Slip differential, except exact replacement of stock or factory delivered option
1 Replacement of drivers seat with racing seat (Only for vehicles which do not require a lap and shoulder
harness)
2,1,4

Obvious attempt of weight reduction or weight transfer, i.e., removal of each bumper, removal of or
replacement of each body panel, each plexiglass window panel, battery relocation, etc., per modification
(first modification = 2; subsequent modifications = 1; maximum = 4)
Other points may be assessed for modifications not stated here by the chief Tech Inspector (1 point
maximum per modification
Total Points Assessed for This Vehicle

[Dizmm]

^ I dont know if that would work either for VPT, he'd be in the Race class.

[05Saab]

Those points would put me in prepared....much better. I remember looking at those when I was thinking of going to a Madison event.

[VPT]

That would put almost everyone in modified or race.

[Dizmm]

how about we just have VPT class? nothings ever good enough for VPT.

[VPT]

VPT class = all hondas. lol

[05Saab]

Or anything under 200hp, without race rubber.

[TomKat]

Well we can sit around and argue about classes or we could use that energy into putting on events.

Personally I'd rather drive than argue.

[paulmeisterpk]

I like the classes right now.

[Ten2doyle102]

I like the classes right now.


+1, I like them too!!

But I am always up for a change. I voted to atleast test it out.

[Mr. Fuji]

+3, Like um too

[DirtyBird]

i vote to make VPT find us new venues to race at that are maybe a little closer to point.

[northsydryd]

i like vpt's idea even though it would put my n/a eclipse in the same class as fwd turbo cars

[turbo chick]

I really don't care what the classing is....I just wanna race :)

[snoxracer183]

I wanna go fast!

[Deadly_Evolution]

Classing makes little difference to me.. I know I'll always be a few seconds behind certain people with certain cars and always in a close battle with a few others. I personally "TRY" to compete with Andy and Kurt just in general since we have similar cars and set ups. Things seem pretty consistent lately.. Always within tenths of a second with the same people at just about every event.

Hell how many other organizations have you seen the Top 3 guys "disqualify" themselves so other people can take home a trophy?

[devlish]

^ agreed.
DeadlyEvo and I are always close, depending on who's running racerubber that day. the top 3 guys are always the top 3 guys here. and nobody can argue that andy can take just about anyones car and beat that car owners time in their own car! some people are just good drivers. you can't fault the classification for that!

I'm not opposed to trying VPT's method, but don't really see a point. the only thing that will change is who the trophies go to for one or maybe two different classes... because you cannot do PAX times off this style of classification. so guess who's still going to have the fastest time of day?

[devlish]

not sure what this shows us really... well, yeah i am actually :-) if any of the guys are actually able to read that, i'll be impressed.


VPT CLASSIFICATION

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy160/CWSCC/GSS%209-27-09/VPTClasses.jpg

yes, i probably missed one or two people, and didn't go all the way to the end of each class... it redistributes the trophies though i guess
and some people who normally would NOT get a trophy for their SCCA class, do get a trophy now.

HOWEVER... VPT, even giving out trophies for 3 places... you still don't get one. sorry dude. so why all the hostility on this classing issue?

[ragdoll]

Theres a guy named Bob Shampoo?

[devlish]

i think i spelled his last name wrong, but basically that's how it's pronounced at least i'm guessing... so i figured i'd just simplify it for everyone.

[StephaniEvo]

It's actually pronounced Shampoh and spelled Shampau I believe. Megan would know the spelling better...she's good at that.

[paulmeisterpk]

Well, even on shorter auto-x's, I cannot compete against STis and EVOs with my non-turbo Impreza. I just don't have the power or suspension that they do. That's why they are 6 stock classes ahead of my car in G-stock. I might as well sit at home until I get my hands on an EVO or STi so I can be competitive again.

[Getsideways]

Thats funny^^^

[Mr. Fuji]

Hell how many other organizations have you seen the Top 3 guys "disqualify" themselves so other people can take home a trophy?

Yes,
I agree.

If it gets more people into our events, Im good for Trophys to newer club members and Rookies only.

[Mr. Fuji]

Well, even on shorter auto-x's, I cannot compete against STis and EVOs with my non-turbo Impreza.


Yea, Right!!!

[VPT]

not sure what this shows us really... well, yeah i am actually :-) if any of the guys are actually able to read that, i'll be impressed.


VPT CLASSIFICATION

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy160/CWSCC/GSS%209-27-09/VPTClasses.jpg

yes, i probably missed one or two people, and didn't go all the way to the end of each class... it redistributes the trophies though i guess
and some people who normally would NOT get a trophy for their SCCA class, do get a trophy now.

HOWEVER... VPT, even giving out trophies for 3 places... you still don't get one. sorry dude. so why all the hostility on this classing issue?





.900 of a second is tighter competition than losing by 5 seconds. This is my whole point. Look at how close everyone is in their classes my way.

[the_garynator]

not sure what this shows us really... well, yeah i am actually :-) if any of the guys are actually able to read that, i'll be impressed.


VPT CLASSIFICATION

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy160/CWSCC/GSS%209-27-09/VPTClasses.jpg

yes, i probably missed one or two people, and didn't go all the way to the end of each class... it redistributes the trophies though i guess
and some people who normally would NOT get a trophy for their SCCA class, do get a trophy now.

HOWEVER... VPT, even giving out trophies for 3 places... you still don't get one. sorry dude. so why all the hostility on this classing issue?
who's ass is that? it's rather nice :D

[TomKat]

I think Devlish should be in charge of posting results. Excellent job.

[Ten2doyle102]

.900 of a second is tighter competition than losing by 5 seconds. This is my whole point. Look at how close everyone is in their classes my way.

I have to agree with VPT on that. Yeah, he wouldn't have gotten a trophy, but atleast he would have a chance. You could probably make up that difference pretty easily, but making up 5 secs is not exactly that the same. It shows plain as day how much closer things would be instead of just grouping all the cars no matter what they in one section. I would be game for trying this out one time just for shits and giggles....

[northsydryd]

Theres a guy named Bob Shampoo?

its shampeau . i dont go by bob . and im not suprised somone knowticed if you change a few letters it says shampoo

[TomKat]

FVSCC tried using MSCC classes once. It was OK, but we are not going to run different classes because:

- We will let SCCA do all the car classing work.

-We do not want to argue about car classing. If you want to argue take it up with the SCCA

-We want to provide our participants with an easy step to move up to Milwaukee or Chicago events.
__________________

[VPT]

FVSCC tried using MSCC classes once. It was OK, but we are not going to run different classes because:

- We will let SCCA do all the car classing work.

-We do not want to argue about car classing. If you want to argue take it up with the SCCA

-We want to provide our participants with an easy step to move up to Milwaukee or Chicago events.
__________________




We aren't talking about using MSCC classes, can you read? Did you look at the VPT classing results? Much much closer competition than your scca classing. Also there is no mistaking my classing system. You look at the car, look at the tires, class the car.

You run these fvscc events and should know all the ins and outs and even YOU had your own car classed wrong ALL YEAR!

[devlish]

I think Devlish should be in charge of posting results. Excellent job.
your welcome.



I'm guessing that the SCCA has had years and years of experience into the classing system. When all the rules are followed for that class all cars running those rules to the full extent will be very competitive.

Look at my classing for example. I had to run in BSP because of my intakes and ended up 3 seconds behind Kurt. I have true street tires, intake and a cat-back exhaust that is it. The rest of my car is completely stock, zero suspension mods, engine tuning, r-compound tires, ect. Adding all allowable mods for BSP to my car I know that I can be competitive once I am to that setup.

If someone really cares to win, they will read the rules and use them to their full advantage. You can't just start doing mods to you car just because, and then in the end read the rules to find out that you have now disqualified yourself from running any of the lower classes.

You seem like someone that has been around long enough to understand this concept and I'm sure has had multiple cars in your years of autox. Originally, I really wanted to put an APR rear wing on my car for more rear grip, but reading the rules that would take me out of any of the SP classes.

So in the end it comes down to, do you want to race your car to win (read and mod your car per the rules) or do you want to mod the car the way it makes you happy (don't give a shit about the class and run what you brung and have fun)

There is no need to completely change the way everyone else has to follow the rules because you yourself want to make the rules so they fit you for the better.

^^ still one of the better explanations as to why we keep the rules we have.
but either way, i don't care. i still behind the same 3-4 guys EVERY TIME!! WTF?

[VPT]

your welcome.





^^ still one of the better explanations as to why we keep the rules we have.
but either way, i don't care. i still behind the same 3-4 guys EVERY TIME!! WTF?




The only way to run in a lower class is to run a stock car. That is why scca classes suck, you are either in stock class or SM, half of the cars at the events are in SM.

I know I don't want to drive some stock car around. Pretty much any person that is into cars also likes to mod them. Well if everyone has a modded car they are all lumped together in one class which sucks for everyone.

The results don't lie, modded or stock VPT classing makes for tighter competition which equals more fun for everyone! I know I would have much more fun racing against Frank, Joel, and Matt all day at GSS even though my car was driving like shit. But instead I was in SM with EVERYONE and I was completely pissed off all day because my car was driving like shit and I knew I had absolutely no chance at placing anywhere in the top 5. So that left me pissed off for all winter and I know with the scca classes I will not return to GSS next year.

[devlish]

if it helps any... you were in the dead center of your SM class.

bump yourself to EM like fronk, and you'll be set. then you and frank can compete all day long!

or, start your own racing club. i'll come to your races. we'll talk cars, women, and allow drinking on course! ha. it'll be a hoot.

[VPT]

if it helps any... you were in the dead center of your SM class.

bump yourself to EM like fronk, and you'll be set. then you and frank can compete all day long!

or, start your own racing club. i'll come to your races. we'll talk cars, women, and allow drinking on course! ha. it'll be a hoot.



Frank shouldn't be in EM, his car is to heavy... No one knows scca classes.

[VPT]

Frank shouldn't be in EM, his car is to heavy... No one knows scca classes.




Its like I am in a plane with a bunch of people that say, pilots can fly these things but we have no idea how to.

[VPT]

And his engine is to big: May use any four- or more valve engine up to 1615cc

[Dizmm]

go fuck yourself vpt!

this thread sucks.

[VPT]

I am going to fight until the end for what is right!

[TomKat]

We aren't talking about using MSCC classes, can you read? Did you look at the VPT classing results? Much much closer competition than your scca classing.
You run these fvscc events and should know all the ins and outs and even YOU had your own car classed wrong ALL YEAR!

We tried different classing once. It went over like a rock. VPT classes would go over like a rock.

VPT classes worked OK for this one event. Next event I'd bet they'd fail miserably. There will be a shitload of opposition if we were to run VPT classes. More arguments - just what we need.

My car was not classed wrong this year except for one event where we purposely kept in in the wrong class for a reason.


If Extreme's car is in the wrong class we'll change it.

[Extremedsm]

I could care less!!! Put me in Z Mod if you would like.

I do not know how the classing works for everything but I would guess that it would be too hard to change anyways.

The VPT classing does look good but there is problems with it also. There is going to be problems with any classing.

I did see one problem that killed the FWD cars at GSS and it was the start. I was out there helping set up the track and I guess it would be my fault for not sugesting to move the start back a little so the FWD cars could get going a little before entering the oval and not being able to touch the gas peddle.

[Deadly_Evolution]

^ Well said Extreme. Only thing I don't know if it would have mattered though with the start position. Personally I was not on the gas at the point of the going onto the oval. I tried to time it so I was shifting right there. Reason being.. (*note A) I like my differentials I did the same thing when I raced the SRT 4 at GSS, and when my EVO was FWD last year. *See note A

[devlish]

ice racing pretty much uses VPT classes... except its studded vs non, instead of street vs race rubber...
why not autox? just curious.

[Kiesgen117]

for ice racing tires and drive wheels are the only "major" difference makers. Auto-X has many more factors, Also the idea behind pax is to make it so it's not just the richest guy who dumps the most money in his car wins, It's suppost to compare drivers and when you race with people with simmilarly prepared cars this works very well. (Note Ken and Dale always within 0.xxx sec of each other on pax).

Also devilsh why don't you buy 140 tread wear tires and run in STU?

[devlish]

i have 140 treadwear tires. i'm not in STU probalby becuase TK and Dizmm told me to go into BSP???
after looking at the rules though, i'm pretty sure i fit STU. oh whatever. i don't care. so what if i would have been TOP of my STU class at every event i attended (except 1)! ha.

[TomKat]

Devlish was running r-comps on Sunday if I'm not mistaken.

[Dizmm]

i have 140 treadwear tires. i'm not in STU probalby becuase TK and Dizmm told me to go into BSP???
after looking at the rules though, i'm pretty sure i fit STU. oh whatever. i don't care. so what if i would have been TOP of my STU class at every event i attended (except 1)! ha.

Your running more boost and no cat. BSP you go!

[Kiesgen117]

Also, we could add a street tire combined class as many other clubs do, were u are only allowed to run street tires and the class is decided by pax.

[snoxracer183]

Isn't treadwear rating company specific anyways? Saying I have a 140 treadwear does nothing to compare different brands of tires so that rating shouldn't be used to determine tire classing.

[Deadly_Evolution]

Isn't treadwear rating company specific anyways? Saying I have a 140 treadwear does nothing to compare different brands of tires so that rating shouldn't be used to determine tire classing.

You are correct, its brand dependant. I will say though with my experience so far.. they are fairly close from tire brand to tire brand.

[snoxracer183]

I looked up the ST SCCA rules and it actually states 140 treadwear in the rule. Guess they must be close enough from brand to brand to make a SCCA rule about it.

[devlish]

Your running more boost and no cat. BSP you go!

still running stock boost, but no cat is correct.

[snoxracer183]

So can anyone clarify the italic writing from this SCCA pdf?

Can a 350Z run in STX or even STU because it says: 4 seat minimum except sports car based

350Z only has 2 seats and 3.5L NA motor

Is the italicized writing saying that a 350Z would be allowed in the class because it is sports car based?

link
http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules/2009_Street_Touring_Category_Classfications_by_Man ufacturer.pdf

[VPT]

We tried different classing once. It went over like a rock. VPT classes would go over like a rock.

VPT classes worked OK for this one event. Next event I'd bet they'd fail miserably. There will be a shitload of opposition if we were to run VPT classes. More arguments - just what we need.

My car was not classed wrong this year except for one event where we purposely kept in in the wrong class for a reason.


If Extreme's car is in the wrong class we'll change it.



All I am asking is to try it at ONE (1, uno, single) event. If you don't think it will work for other tracks lets try it at MSS than and see how it would work.

I attended all but one event this year and I seen the same standings at all of the events. I think it would work out much better than what we have now.

[devlish]

or, we can just report the standings superimposed over a hot girl. then everyone seems to be happy, right?

[Getsideways]

Everyone in stock class will throw fits with your classing method,,,
If we have a big enough field inside of sm i could see splitting up the classes and handing out trophys to only the top finishers but no matter what someone will draw the short straw

[Kiesgen117]

So can anyone clarify the italic writing from this SCCA pdf?

Can a 350Z run in STX or even STU because it says: 4 seat minimum except sports car based

350Z only has 2 seats and 3.5L NA motor

Is the italicized writing saying that a 350Z would be allowed in the class because it is sports car based?

link
http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules/2009_Street_Touring_Category_Classfications_by_Man ufacturer.pdf

Yes the 350z can run stu, but for next year there is a new class, STR which will have better index than stu, for more info check scca forums.

[Kiesgen117]

or, we can just report the standings superimposed over a hot girl. then everyone seems to be happy, right?

^^^ THIS!!! lol

[devlish]

then it's settled. no new classes, just more hot babes!!!
well that was easy.

[snoxracer183]

Another vote for hot babes!

[paulmeisterpk]

x3 for hot babes!

[VPT]

Everyone in stock class will throw fits with your classing method,,,
If we have a big enough field inside of sm i could see splitting up the classes and handing out trophys to only the top finishers but no matter what someone will draw the short straw




Steph in a bone stock dx with street tires was less than a second behind me...

[VPT]

Seems as though only the people with dominating cars are the only ones that don't like this idea.

[TomKat]

Steph in a bone stock dx with street tires was less than a second behind me...

Where do you get this crap VPT. Steph was 2.79 seconds behind you and she was on r-compounds.

Giving false information is not helping your case.

-saying my car was incorrectly classed all year
-saying we did nothing about the Jon's conflict with the Colt turbo.

X4 on the hot babe idea. BTW

[VPT]

Sorry I could have swore I seen her post something about having a 39.xx

Now that I look at it though I see even Steph was put in SM (OMG LMFAO!) and here are her times:

12 m SM 505 Steph Addis civic snot 44.638 44.618+2 43.540 43.200 42.237 41.356


She finished 12th with no chance of placing. Now if she was in the FWD R-compound class she would have placed 5th and at least had a chance to improve.

Why the hell was she stuck in SM? Her car is bone stock.

[VPT]

-saying we did nothing about the Jon's conflict with the Colt turbo.




You guys didn't do shit about Jon's complaint about the colt. You rode in the car and looked at the guys boost gauge (which could have been very easily faulty) and said well that looks good. Than you looked under the car and said well looks like there is an exhaust there. That was it!!!

To be done right a boost gauge should have been installed to check boost levels. The downpipe should have been mic'ed to check for size and the exhaust unbolted to see if the catalytic converter was not tampered with.

You failed miserably at checking the car over for what Jon protested for...

[Mr. Fuji]

Ok, I have the solution!
FVSCC invests in a nice used, newer, lightweight, good handling, low power front wheel drive car.
Car is "wrapped" to promote FVSCC and Autocross.
We install some good tires, a set of good pads, then leave the car bone stock.
No one drives the car but one person who is in charge of storage, service and inspections.
That person is not allowed to participate in the compitition, but may run in each event.
The car is at each event.
For $10.00, drivers enter the "Best Driver Challenge" event each event.
Drivers get a min of 6 runs per event.
Points are earned per results.
Results are posted and annonced at the end of each event, and posted on a "Top Gear Board" style board that travels with the car to each event.
The car and the "Top Gear Board" is also displayed at local Car Shows to promote the FVSCC.
End of the year we award a trophey for the top 10 drivers based on points.

Before each event, we also invite local guests or "Celebritys" to come and race it for free, or donations. (Good PR)
They may be local Police Officers, Buisness owners, Track Owners, News Paper or Local TV News people, Radio DJ's, and local City officals.
The "Celebritys" are also invited to our awards dinner at season end.

We promote the sport, and our club, also have a new event to compeate in.

[Dizmm]

^ I've seen a few clubs do that. I'd be up for that.

[TomKat]

You guys didn't do shit about Jon's complaint about the colt. You rode in the car and looked at the guys boost gauge (which could have been very easily faulty) and said well that looks good. Than you looked under the car and said well looks like there is an exhaust there. That was it!!!

To be done right a boost gauge should have been installed to check boost levels. The downpipe should have been mic'ed to check for size and the exhaust unbolted to see if the catalytic converter was not tampered with.

You failed miserably at checking the car over for what Jon protested for...

No.

Nobody rode with him to check the boost gauge. Wrong again. That would pointless anyways because nobody could come up with a stock boost psi specification.

Jon should have measured the down pipe. All he came up with was a picture of a pipe. I did look into it I saw nothing wrong with it.

If Jon wanted to measure the downpipe and find stock measurements he was more than welcome to do so. He never did. If he wanted to take the exhaust off the Colt to inspect the cat. he would have to pay for the work to be done.

He never followed up.

FVSCC is not going to take cars apart. If the protestor wants to do so then they have to take the appropriate action.

[TomKat]

Mr. Fuji. - I did that at a Marshfield event last year. Nobody except myself, Highline, Devlish, and TC took part.

No interest so I gave up on the idea.

[Dizmm]

Mr. Fuji. - I did that at a Marshfield event last year. Nobody except myself, Highline, Devlish, and TC took part.

No interest so I gave up on the idea.

the car didn’t last long enough for everyone to take a spin. The alternator died and the car was running purely off battery which soon died.

i think a really lightweight honda would be the hot ticket. less weight = less wear and tear.

[the_garynator]

the car didn’t last long enough for everyone to take a spin. The alternator died and the car was running purely off battery which soon died.

i think a really lightweight honda would be the hot ticket. less weight = less wear and tear.
or a shitbox 240 :cool:

[northsydryd]

i vote for toms evo

[DontStopMe]

shut up and race.

/thread.

[Extremedsm]

So what is going on around here?

[Mr. Fuji]

Mr. Fuji. - I did that at a Marshfield event last year. Nobody except myself, Highline, Devlish, and TC took part.

No interest so I gave up on the idea.

Sorry,
I didnt know.
Was that the Shadow???
How about something alittle .........newer.
FVSCC needs to spend some of there cash!!.

[VPT]

So what is going on around here?



Well I would assume TK the admin opened the thread back up so he could "mod" in some votes for keep scca classes. Than after a few days when he gets the votes up over VPT classing he will say see no one wants it, end of thread, go fuck yourself.

[highline_motorsports]

All this complaining over a event that you dont even win any money?? Just go race and have a good time!!
If your not happy with the way things are ran, first Tuesday of every month you can attand the FVSCC meetings and bring it up to the board!

[VPT]

All this complaining over a event that you dont even win any money?? Just go race and have a good time!!
If your not happy with the way things are ran, first Tuesday of every month you can attand the FVSCC meetings and bring it up to the board!



Competition is half the fun of racing no matter if you win anything or not. If the cars in your class very 10 seconds and are completely different natures of cars it takes away allot of the fun.


I seen the fvscc meetings at TT, trying to explain this shit over the phone will work out just awesome I am sure.

[TomKat]

Well I would assume TK the admin opened the thread back up so he could "mod" in some votes for keep scca classes. Than after a few days when he gets the votes up over VPT classing he will say see no one wants it, end of thread, go fuck yourself.

I never locked or unlocked this thread.

These polls mean a lot. A lot.

Hey VPT why don't you start a poll to get me voted off the forum. LOL Those were very effective.

VPT if you need to attend the FVSCC in person to state your case. Honestly though unless you volunteer to do all the timing and classing work (competition director) for 2010 the SCCA classes will stand.

[3ftcivic]

Tits on my Dick.
















Thats right, I said that.

[Dizmm]

VPT if you need to attend the FVSCC in person to state your case. Honestly though unless you volunteer to do all the timing and classing work (competition director) for 2010 the SCCA classes will stand.

That would be a job, and that means he would have to give up his freedom for a few hours.

VPT, if you want to be competitive, build a competitive car, not some car you bought for a winter beater and installed some parts you found from another parts car.

Here is a prime example of a properly modded honda. Look at the raw event results when washburn showed up with his 89 civic. he beat TK on RAW time. The guy was running street rubber!!!
http://www.fvscc.com/results/2009_summer/event2_mfld_raw.htm
We even had the so called AWD advantage!

[VPT]

He was only .2 seconds faster than Matt, and only 2 seconds faster than me when I was on 165/70/13 fleet farm tires.

He beat Tom because that was only the second event of the year, Tom wasn't cheating yet.


So what would I have to do to my car to make up 5 seconds on a 35 second course?

[VPT]

Honestly though unless you volunteer to do all the timing and classing work (competition director) for 2010 the SCCA classes will stand.



So I have to go threw all this and work all year as CD so we can try out my classing system for one fucking event?

Go fuck yourself!

[TomKat]

So I have to go threw all this and work all year as CD so we can try out my classing system for one fucking event?

Go fuck yourself!

Ha ha. That's what I thought. SCCA rules and classes stand.

That was easy. Now I have some free time (freedom) to go do whatever I want.

[TomKat]

So what would I have to do to my car to make up 5 seconds on a 35 second course?

Good question.

-Complaining about the classing system and making false accusations is not the answer.

-I'd recommend attending as many events as possible. Talk to people - ride with people - read some books on the subject. Find out what produces a fast time. You learn a lot more when you lose than when you win.

I think you could easily make up those 5 seconds. Here is your challenge VPT.

[Dizmm]

books? I got a few I'll barrow ya.

A real good one is Tune to win by Carrol Smith.

[VPT]

Ha ha. That's what I thought. SCCA rules and classes stand.

That was easy. Now I have some free time (freedom) to go do whatever I want.



Typical Tom, makes things so complicated and impossible that the opposition gives up and Tom gets his way.

It is going to be a long long long winter around these parts.

[TomKat]

Typical Tom, makes things so complicated and impossible that the opposition gives up and Tom gets his way.

It is going to be a long long long winter around these parts.

It's not impossible. If you want to run your classes it will be a lot of work for you and don't forget all the people who will be complaining about you classing system to make it easy on you. Ha ha. No more freedom for VPT.

Long winter - oh boy more ice racing. Can't wait.

[VPT]

Good question.

-Complaining about the classing system and making false accusations is not the answer.

-I'd recommend attending as many events as possible. Talk to people - ride with people - read some books on the subject. Find out what produces a fast time. You learn a lot more when you lose than when you win.

I think you could easily make up those 5 seconds. Here is your challenge VPT.



I have a question, how come you don't race your CRX any more Tom? Why are you always racing the evo if the fwd crx is equal with scca classing?

[VPT]

It's not impossible. If you want to run your classes it will be a lot of work for you and don't forget all the people who will be complaining about you classing system to make it easy on you. Ha ha. No more freedom for VPT.

Long winter - oh boy more ice racing. Can't wait.



Look at the votes, looks like people don't mind trying it out...

All I am asking for is one event, not the whole season.

[TomKat]

I have a question, how come you don't race your CRX any more Tom? Why are you always racing the evo if the fwd crx is equal with scca classing?

"Rattle" does not quality for SM class. I am not racing it because it needs some work.

I'd like to make it into my autocross car, but it needs work and parts.

-rollbar. Already have it just needs to be installed.
-coilovers. Need to purchase.
-seat. Needs to be installed.
-new bushings. Argggh.

[VPT]

Seems like a SM car to me, but I guess since its your car it will be in HS or something that it doesn't belong.

[VPT]

It's not impossible. If you want to run your classes it will be a lot of work for you and don't forget all the people who will be complaining about you classing system to make it easy on you. Ha ha. No more freedom for VPT



I'll agree to run the classing, timing computer, whatever for the one event that we try out the VPT classing system. If it goes over well and people want to use it at other events I will agree to work any event that we use VPT classing for.

Not like I don't do anything now...

[the-moss]

I know I would have much more fun racing against Frank, Joel, and Matt all day at GSS even though my car was driving like shit. But instead I was in SM with EVERYONE and I was completely pissed off all day because my car was driving like shit and I knew I had absolutely no chance at placing anywhere in the top 5.

So let me get this straight, a fair classing system would be one where you can bring a car that is "driving like shit" and have a chance of placing in the top 5?

SCCA has spent a lot of time coming up with their classing system, and while it's not perfect, it is a pretty good way of levelling the playing field.

Like with most racing series, you build a car to suit the rules, not the rules to suit your car.

MSCC rules to a better job of allowing someone to mod their car with no regard to the rules and have a chance of having a competetive car, but then there is no way to compare time across classes (PAX) and the transition from SCCA to MSCC.

Having acted as the Competition Director for FVSCC I'll say that you can never make everyone happy with regard to classing, points and the rules. It can be a very time consuming job.

[VPT]

Like with most racing series, you build a car to suit the rules, not the rules to suit your car.


But that is the problem with scca rules, if you do pretty much anything to any car you are bumped into their (dump) class of SM. So unless you like driving a POS stock car around the track you are going to be placed in SM class with EVERYONE.

Have you looked at the VPT classing system results Moss? Much closer and better competition between all cars in all classes than the scca way! Even with proof on the table I find it funny that people still argue.

Look at that glass of milk, its white. = TK, Dizzmm, moss, no its not, someone put allot of time into looking at that glass of milk and told us it was yellow. So its yellow.

[Getsideways]

Your classing method turns into what drag racing is which is who has more money and time stuck into their car.....
I dont particularly like pax i think its rather gay actually that you need a handicap to keep up but it does even out the playing field for people who drive stockish cars ,,,
If you had a real problem with it you would conform to the rules rather then try to make the rules conform to you ,,,, explain to me how its fair that your car on race rubber runs in the same class as bluepy ??? Or my car on street tires is in the same class as toms 2.5rs or the other blue 2.5 rs ....
See no matter what someones getting bent ,, or at least feels that way ,,, id be open to try but you can clearly see that there is no wrong or right way (look at MSCC events),
At least we all get some comparison with pax , If your willing to use the rules to your advantage rather then disadvantage.

[VPT]

Poop against blupy on race rubber isn't as bad as it is now.

I bet Tom against you on race rubber in a auto-x would be close as well. Auto-x isn't about power, it is about handling and grip. AWD grip is just plain unfair against fwd.

[Dizmm]

Poop against blupy on race rubber isn't as bad as it is now.

I bet Tom against you on race rubber in a auto-x would be close as well. Auto-x isn't about power, it is about handling and grip. AWD grip is just plain unfair against fwd.

FWD? get a real sports car. real sport cars are NOT FWD!

[VPT]

And thats what I always hear "if you don't like it get a different car" That is not how it is supposed to be!

[Dizmm]

And thats what I always hear "if you don't like it get a different car" That is not how it is supposed to be!

Keep your pieced together parts car, but if you want to be a cheap lazy ass, you will be classed like one!

[VPT]

Keep your pieced together parts car, but if you want to be a cheap lazy ass, you will be classed like one!



That makes sense... :this_is_stupid_yo:

[Getsideways]

Poop against blupy on race rubber isn't as bad as it is now.

I bet Tom against you on race rubber in a auto-x would be close as well. Auto-x isn't about power, it is about handling and grip. AWD grip is just plain unfair against fwd.
Thats weird because according to the GSS results on pax you beat bluepy hmmmmmm but raw you didnt?????

And no toms RS on race rubber with me on street tires im betting a full second faster at the minimum i bet tom would agree with that as well...

What could you do to your car to make it more competitive in sm ???

[TomKat]

AWD grip is just plain unfair against fwd.

We just had a big debate about this at the last Midwest Council autocross committee meeting. AWD with a shitload of power and computer controlled diffs. has an advantage, but in an underpowered car like the RS I think it's a disadvantage on dry pavement.

Now what VPT? If you like to argue points like this so much you should come to the Council meetings.

[VPT]

Thats weird because according to the GSS results on pax you beat bluepy hmmmmmm but raw you didnt?????

And no toms RS on race rubber with me on street tires im betting a full second faster at the minimum i bet tom would agree with that as well...

What could you do to your car to make it more competitive in sm ???



I don't care about pax time, I want to beat people strait up. If I lost to blupy I lost, I should have drive faster and set up my car better for the day.

If tom was on r-comps and you were on street tires you guys would be in different classes and not have to worry about each other.

[VPT]

We just had a big debate about this at the last Midwest Council autocross committee meeting. AWD with a shitload of power and computer controlled diffs. has an advantage, but in an underpowered car like the RS I think it's a disadvantage on dry pavement.

Now what VPT? If you like to argue points like this so much you should come to the Council meetings.



It is always an advantage because coming out of corners you can just plant your foot. Any fwd car you have to work the gas coming out of corners.

No matter how under powered a fwd car will light up the inside front tire coming out of corners where a awd can just plant their foot without worry.

Jon S stock civic with R-compounds lights up the front inside tire coming out of corners.

[Getsideways]

I bet Tom against you on race rubber in a auto-x would be close as well.
According to this you thought it would be fair though???

Why are you talking in circles?

[TomKat]

Jon S stock civic with R-compounds lights up the front inside tire coming out of corners.

Yeah because that car is completely stock (wink wink). LOL


You have to modulate the throttle coming out of corners in any car not matter how many wheels are driving.

AWD has a weight penalty. That being said if the hp is below 200 I'd prefer a 2WD car rather than an AWD. Unless it is snowing of course.

[VPT]

According to this you thought it would be fair though???

Why are you talking in circles?

Your the one mentioning cars that would be in different classes.

[VPT]

Yeah because that car is completely stock (wink wink). LOL


You have to modulate the throttle coming out of corners in any car not matter how many wheels are driving.

AWD has a weight penalty. That being said if the hp is below 200 I'd prefer a 2WD car rather than an AWD. Unless it is snowing of course.

Jons car is stock.

I rode along in plenty of awd's, you can't fool me Tom, you guys come out of the corners and plant your foot. I seen it hundreds of times.

[Dizmm]

you guys come out of the corners and plant your foot. I seen it hundreds of times.

HAHAHAH I guess we're cheaters for trying to go fast. dam us all!

[VPT]

No, but unfairly classed with everyone else.

[devlish]

i have to agree with whomever said 'build a car to fit the rules/class you want to run in'. not try to change the rules to fit your car.

[VPT]

Thats not how it should be. This isn't some publicized national series with sponsors and shit. This is just some people bringing their cars out to drive around some cones. The rules should be simple so anyone can come race their car and not have to worry or try to understand a shit load of rules to be competitive.

It should be simple and the cars should be classed together according to their drive train nature. Not throw everyone into SM so some guy with his fwd 120 hp pos has to compete against some 400hp awd evo on R-compounds. That is just not right.

But as I look at the users of this forum I see why people keep sticking up for the scca rules we have now. Everyone on here has an awd car and doesn't give a shit about anyone else. Bandwagoneers, so naturally when one awd owner says scca rules are ok all the rest of the bandwagon riders just go along with it.

[Dizmm]

This isn't some publicized national series with sponsors and shit.

you need to get out more!

[highline_motorsports]

I can't believe this isn't in the dead end section yet!!

[snoxracer183]

I don't want to seem like an ass but this thread has just gotten ridiculous

VPT give it up man. I am a RWD car and don't bitch about the rules so that theory is now proven wrong.

I wouldn't hesitate to say your classing system can be proven to be very very faulty as soon as more than just 40 cars show up. I'd like to see what happens if you would take a Milwaukee area autocross and group cars YOUR way.

The more I read your post, I just understand that this is in your nature to say the hell with rules, the hell with the man, I do everything on my own hear me roar! That's fine you choose to live that way/think that way, but that's not the way any of the world works.

You choose to build your car the way you did, you choose to care about winning, so you should choose to follow the rules of the circuit that you choose to run. That's the way racing is. Just seems like the people that are slow, not winning, can't handle it and are too lazy to do it the right way, always are the ones bitching.

Think someone that shows up with a Miata spec race car can show up to a Formula 1 event and can expect them to change the rules so the Miata is competitive? Get real man. Bring a gun to a gun fight, not a knife.

[the-moss]

I'm sorry I dug this thread up again. I was just cyberstalking Dizmm to try to figure out what car he bought. But this is an amusing discussion to me.

VPT - You have made a number of incorrect statements.

1 - If you mod your car you end up in SM. This simply isn't true. If you want to take an N/A car and add a ton of power by turboing it. Yeah you go pretty much straight into SM, if you want to swap the engine you will probably end up in SM. But you can spend a lot of time and money making a very quick car that is still in stock class, street prepared or street touring.

2 - You seem to suggest that your 'classing' method evens the playing field more. So I can bring my 01 neon on shitty tires and have a chance to win FWD street tire class? I don't think so.

If you care that much about being uncompetitive, improve your driving and prepare your car within the rules. If not, you can do what has been done in this thread and class yourself and others in whichever manner makes you feel better after the event is done. The unofficial VPT results.

[devlish]

Get real man. Bring a gun to a gun fight, not a knife. nice
applaud applaud applaud.


hahahaha

[VPT]

VPT give it up man.



Yeah ok, it was a stupid idea anyhow, forget I ever mentioned it.

So how about that snow were getting today, pretty exciting!

[DontStopMe]

shut up and race.

/thread.

You had the right idea the first time when you closed this thread.

shut up and race.

/thread.

shut up and race.

/thread.

[VPT]

You had the right idea the first time when you closed this thread.



That was right from the start, I was just playin with all yall the whole time. LOL

[DSM Girl]

VPT I am disappointed in you for giving up so easily. Isn't that what this forum is all about . . . getting the whiny babies panties in a bunch? You were doing a good job of that. No more heated discussions and now things are going to be boring again.

[VPT]

Yeah the thread kind of died. I'll come up with something new soon. It'll be a panty buncher for sure!

[EVILUTION]

Maybe the classing discussion died but he did make a few good points.....
1. A good portion of the cars at these events are classed wrong.
2. Hot lapping of two driver cars should not be allowed.
3. Hot lapping for event coordinators and workers should not be allowed. There are plenty of people to hold down the fort.
4. The majority of FVSCC events are set up for high HP AWD cars. There has been no effort to tighten gates or eliminate a straight line launches. You know its not always necessary to get an evo into 3rd gear in order to have a fun course!
5. Lastly... Rarely if ever do they utilize the punish/reward or sacrifice/gain concept. Meaning very few course layouts create situations where the driver must analyze the course or use discipline to be competitive. Has there even been a transient that required a precise entry? What about changing radius sweepers? Its like the these courses were layed out by someone that got a C- in highschool geometry. An offset slalom would be great... more like dodging random students in a crosswalk and less like changing lanes on the highway. Add some severity to slow down the monster cars and reckless drivers. They don't even take the time to switch up the chalk lines to add interest.... always a smooth line... christ... changing angles wont hurt but may add some spice when running the course.
6. They always say come early and set up the course if you don't like it... and that is complete bs. Responsibility comes with being an event chairman. Only people truely interested and qualified should be delt this position.

[Dizmm]

http://www.gadgetvenue.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Complaint-Department-300x257.jpg

Maybe you've got the right idea evil, I guess I'd rather sit at home and play video games.

[TomKat]

in order to have a fun course!
5. Lastly... Rarely if ever do they utilize the punish/reward or sacrifice/gain concept. Meaning very few course layouts create situations where the driver must analyze the course or use discipline to be competitive. Has there even been a transient that required a precise entry? What about changing radius sweepers? Its like the these courses were layed out by someone that got a C- in highschool geometry. An offset slalom would be great... more like dodging random students in a crosswalk and less like changing lanes on the highway. Add some severity to slow down the monster cars and reckless drivers. They don't even take the time to switch up the chalk lines to add interest.... always a smooth line... christ... changing angles wont hurt but may add some spice when running the course.
.

Um. Yeah I don't think you could be any more wrong on this one. LOL

[VPT]

http://www.gadgetvenue.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Complaint-Department-300x257.jpg

Maybe you've got the right idea evil, I guess I'd rather sit at home and play video games.



I hear urban terror is fun.

[Dizmm]

I hear urban terror is fun.

I'm ready! lets go!

[northsydryd]

im game lets do this