Strange braking issues...1998 Impreza 2.5rs

[Ten2doyle102]

This is for a 1998 Subie Impreza 2.5rs I just picked up. At the time of the test drive, I assumed this problem was just old warped rotors.... Apparently not though

So now after buying the car, I decided to buy new rotors and pads for it. They have only been installed for a couple of days now, but the vibrations are still there. They never really got any better or any worse after changing the parts either. The other strange thing was that when I was test driving the car and vibs occured, I told the p.o. about this and I had him drive the car the next time. However, when he drove it....I never happened, braking was fine. So its something that is random. Also when the vibrations are there, they get worse the harder you stop, but when they are not there it doesn't make a difference no matter how hard you try to stop.

Something else that I noticed was the fact that one rotor (drivers side) is shiny and looks like its working while the other side looks nearly brand new. The rotor even still has the machining marks on it. That would tell me that either passenger side caliper is not working (when I compressed it to put the new brakes on, it move very easily) or that the driver's is dragging and just wrapped my new rotor. However, in both scenarios, I would expect the car to either pull while braking, or to pull while driving which neither happens.

Now, I could just start throwing money at it and start by replacing the calipers, but I find that that is not the best way to do things.... :) So maybe one of you could offer some insight...

[TomKat]

What kind of shape is the rest of the front end in? Tie rod ends, ball joints, and wheel bearings.

[Ten2doyle102]

Everything else seems nice and tight. There's no clunks or anything like that. I know that one of the tierods has a ripped boot, but I don't think its the cause of the problems. Its something I was going to get anyway though.

[TomKat]

I've been thinking about this and it's possible a bad strut could be causing those symptoms. Since you are replacing those anyways hopefully it will take care of the problem.

[Ten2doyle102]

Well, We will see in a couple of days. I just took the car out for lunch a few moments ago and stook on the brakes a couple of times from about 50-0 and they work perfectly....I don't get it...

[VPT]

X the tires too.

[Ten2doyle102]

I already tried that too....no difference in the braking...

[VPT]

Was there any build up on the hubs like rust or debris when you put the rotors on? Like Tom said, I have also seen shocks and struts make cars do weird things.

[Ten2doyle102]

Not that I remember. I am going to start the strut install tonight. Hopefully everything goes well!

Its just really pissing me off how its there...and then its not the next time you drive the car!

[Ten2doyle102]

Here is a couople pics of the front rotors so you guys can see what I am talking about...

Drivers side

http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv17/ten2doyle120/Subaru%20build/100_1529.jpg

Passenger side

http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv17/ten2doyle120/Subaru%20build/100_1530.jpg

[VPT]

Yeah that pass. side hasn't braked at all. How does the inside of the rotor look? Is that a floating caliper or fixed? caliper could be froze up, pins that the caliper slide on could be froze up, or prop valve could be messed up and not letting fluid to the pass. side. A line could also be crushed and not letting fluid to that side. Lots of options for a caliper not to work.

[Ten2doyle102]

Yeah, all of which I am going to be looking at tonight.

Its a float caliper as well. I don't know what the inside looks like though, but I'll check it out. The passenger rotor does get warm, just not nearly as hot as the drivers side.

[TomKat]

RS's have floating calipers. Like VPT says make sure the slides and pins move freely.

Did you replace the struts? Any changes.

[Ten2doyle102]

I'll check the slides tonight

I installed the rear struts already, the fronts should be in tonight.

[Mr. Fuji]

Yep!
I agree,
Check the hub surface that the rotor buts up to. Clean all the rust off so it is drawn up against a nice clean flat surface.
Caliper slides need to be free. With the pads out, and caliper bolted on, you schould be able to slid it back and forth (side to side) by hand.
Tighten lug nuts with a tourqe wrench. NO IMPACT Around 65ft lbs ????? STI is 65lbs.
Before throwing parts at it, put it up on 4 jackstands and pull the wheel, install lug nuts with some spacers on the studs to you can tighten them down, and run the car in 1st at idle.
I have been able see run-out be using a screw driver held just off the surface your checking. Maybe a bent hub, knuckle or wheel brg issue. Had a binding CV joint give me trouble onetime.

[TomKat]

Mr. Fuji knows his stuff.

[Ten2doyle102]

Too me though...none of that stuff really explains why the passenger rotor looks brand new....

I will inspect everything that you listed off tomorrow night when I get home from work. Thanks for the help!! :)

[Mr. Fuji]

wokkyyyyyyyypp

[Ten2doyle102]

ummm......wut?

[Ten2doyle102]

Some better pics

Also, do you think this rotor is toast???

http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv17/ten2doyle120/Subaru%20build/subarupics083.jpg



http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv17/ten2doyle120/Subaru%20build/subarupics086.jpg

[VPT]

That rotor is fine as long as its not warped. What is the big pipe wrench for?


Buy a honda. :P

[Ten2doyle102]

I JUST GOT RID OF MY HONDA!!!! LOL! If I were to ever get another one, I want a new SI. I like that blue (or silver, I can't remember) one that was at the last WIR auto-x

I don't think its warped....yet.

I actually used that pipe wrench to free a busted bolt that seized in one of the caliper brackets. Subies have MAJOR problems with bolts breaking on them...

[VPT]

I'd sell it and buy the honda back.


First person I ever met with a subi and asked how they liked it said "its nice, but it doesn't start in the winter". LOL TK was there.

[Ten2doyle102]

Nah, hondas are good for d.d.ing and thats about it IMO. Don't get me wrong, they are nice reliable cars, but sticking money into them for parts and stuff to race is a huge waste of money (more so on hondas then any other car I have seen). I don't think I have gotten more lowball offers in my life on a car except when I was trying to sell that one. I was only able to get 1400 bucks for after I spent nearly $5,000 including the price of the car... Hell, my last civic was green with a black door, dented hood and a dying b18a1 swap and I got 1500 for that!!! Now, if I were to buy one again for strictly racing, i'd get a little ef hatch or something, throw some sticky tires on it, strip it to nothing and beat the piss out of it! But that's as far as it would ever go.


Atleast subies hold their value alot longer. They can be great cars....if you take care of them! Neglected ones are absolute piles of crap. They are designed poorly IMO and use shit materials. I say that because I have never seen a car rust so badly so fast in my life. Not to mention that the hardware hold the car together rusts and seize together so easy. I've got a couple subie friends that live and die by these things and say that breaking bolts is just how it is. My friend broke 7 bolts doing his front suspension on his legacy outback and acted like thats normal. My BMW is 6 years older and has spent its ENTIRE life in wisconsin winters and I have yet a break a bolt on it. Also, I stated that they are poorly engineered IMO. What engineer would think it to be a smart idea to design the brake lines going to calipers so that if you had to pull the strut, you have to either disconnect the brake line....or cut the mounting tab off. That's just dumb... Not to mention the engine design. Once the cam seals blow out (which they will), the oil leaks directly on top of the exhaust header filling the cabin and engine bay with smoke....its horrible! That's how it is on Jess subie right now.

However, the trade off about the car is that with proper maintaince, they can run forever. Hell, even when they aren't maintained they run forever! They're handling characteristics are nice and smooth as well, very predictable and the resale value holds up well.

Plus I like having car that not everyone and their mom owns. I just see too many civics out and about plus I got sick of everyone constantly treating me like some kind of ricer even though everything I did to the car was with performance in mind. When I am driving the BMW and the RS, you seem to get alot more respect.

/rant

Sorry for that... Its just something that annoys me about subaru.

[VPT]

Kurt hates his subi, he is going back to lexus.

[Ten2doyle102]

I thought he just hated the service people at the subie dealership?

[VPT]

Maybe, I don't remember, just remember he is going back to lexus.

[devlish]

I don't hate my subi. not even close. just the people at the service place.

i've decided the Lexus is gone, and while i miss it... i'm not going back. not yet anyways. i think i'm going to get into a Mercedes for a bit and see how that side of the globe treats me.

[Ten2doyle102]

Found the source or my problems last night! Its just a seized caliper slide. The fricken rotor was just dragging really bad because it. The brake pads got mulched though aand actually cracked the pad material itself! Now I just have to find out if the rotor is all warped.... :(

[Posihead]

I can't believe I just read all this... At least VPT gave helpful advice on what the problem might be and Mr. Fuji followed it up more in depth...

Glad you found the simple fix before you threw more parts at it BTW! ;)

[Ten2doyle102]

Well, I could have sworn I checked all the slides before I put the stuff on, I can't believe I missed that (facepalm)...Last night was the first time I got to take it apart again. Besides, I knew had to be something with the brakes though....

I guess what was throwing me off the whole time was the passenger rotor still looking brand spanking new... It just didn't seem right thats all. Am glad though that it was a easy fix!

Thanks to all that helped me! :)

[VPT]

I have magnetic dial indicators for checking runout but I won't be driving out to appleton. :P

[Ten2doyle102]

I checked it at my work. Its at .007" total run out. Is that good or bad???

[VPT]

That should be fine.

[Ten2doyle102]

ok. Sounds good! I'll be buttoning it all up tomorrow! :)

[Mr. Fuji]

Subie rust, Hmmm...
Salt sucks for sure. But, I have to say that with the Subies I have owned, and the vast collection that the Paulmeister has, Rust hasnt been a big issue. Sure they rust, but I cant say any worse the any other Jap car. Most Subies see extended service life. Many way over 200K. That may be why you see alot of real ratty ones on the road.

Cam Seals as well as Crank and Rear main seal leaks are almost always due to lack of oil changes. The blow by, unburned fuel attacks the soft, plyable rubber on the seal and turns it into a rock. Then they leak. Same as any Domestic, Jap, or German car.
Sometimes people are affraid to service the Subbie Boxxer, so they drive around with leaking seals.
I do like the high quality hardware the Germans use. Thats some good stuff. I have worked on some German cars that have had some anti sieze colored coatings on the Brake and Suspension Hardware. But I have also seen that coating on some Jap cars, Subie included. But I will take a salty Jap bolt anyday over a salty Domestic.

My Daughters 1997 Buick Lesabre just dropped the subframe that holds the Motor, Transaxle, and steering rack! All 6, Rear Subframe mounts rotted away, and the whole shittery fell down. Driving down the road. Harware was rotted away. Without the front 2 front mounts, it would have been on the ground! Guess its become a big problem for that GM platform.
And heres the best part....parts on Back Order till January!. Seems the vender that makes the parts may have got burned in the Bankrupcy. Sooooooo, there waiting for a vender to make the big ass formed washers that hold the frame in the mounts.
Yeahhh........Cant get parts for a 1997 Buick.

[VPT]

Buicks are JUNK!!!

[TomKat]

Mr. Fuji - Can you get parts from a junk yard?

[Ten2doyle102]

Subie rust, Hmmm...
Salt sucks for sure. But, I have to say that with the Subies I have owned, and the vast collection that the Paulmeister has, Rust hasnt been a big issue. Sure they rust, but I cant say any worse the any other Jap car. Most Subies see extended service life. Many way over 200K. That may be why you see alot of real ratty ones on the road.

Cam Seals as well as Crank and Rear main seal leaks are almost always due to lack of oil changes. The blow by, unburned fuel attacks the soft, plyable rubber on the seal and turns it into a rock. Then they leak. Same as any Domestic, Jap, or German car.
Sometimes people are affraid to service the Subbie Boxxer, so they drive around with leaking seals.
I do like the high quality hardware the Germans use. Thats some good stuff. I have worked on some German cars that have had some anti sieze colored coatings on the Brake and Suspension Hardware. But I have also seen that coating on some Jap cars, Subie included. But I will take a salty Jap bolt anyday over a salty Domestic.

My Daughters 1997 Buick Lesabre just dropped the subframe that holds the Motor, Transaxle, and steering rack! All 6, Rear Subframe mounts rotted away, and the whole shittery fell down. Driving down the road. Harware was rotted away. Without the front 2 front mounts, it would have been on the ground! Guess its become a big problem for that GM platform.
And heres the best part....parts on Back Order till January!. Seems the vender that makes the parts may have got burned in the Bankrupcy. Sooooooo, there waiting for a vender to make the big ass formed washers that hold the frame in the mounts.
Yeahhh........Cant get parts for a 1997 Buick.

I mean don't get me wrong, Subaru builds some nice cars, but it just seems like everytime I want to do something on the car, it turns into a huge ordeal. Yesterday, just changing out the swaybar for a bigger one ended up taking 2.5hours. Hell, I still laugh at my friend when he did his front suspension on his legacy. Seven busted bolts and a seized axle later, he got it apart. My fiance's legacy had some major problems with its brakes awhile ago. The rear caliper slide some how froze and then proceeded to rust completely away and broke off. The caliper was held on only by the bracket and the wheel. Its a miracle it never fell off.

I love the RS a crap load and I wish I had gotten it for myself, but I also knew that it was going to be a real pain to work on. I don't know, I think being a Mechanical Engineer causes me to think that things that hold things like brakes on to your vehicle, should not break every time you want to change the pads and rotors...

/rant

[Dizmm]

cars pre-2000 require a nice tourch!

[VPT]

Nah, everything unbolts nicely out of my daily driven 89 honda. It is all about how much effort the car company puts into rust prevention. Honda is all about rust prevention with undercoatings, anodized nuts and bolts, and running stuff like fuel lines and brake lines inside the car that are also coated. Sure the bodies rust after 20 years but who cares. It is all about the mechanics of the car that matter.

[Ten2doyle102]

cars pre-2000 require a nice tourch!

Again....I will say that on the 4 e30's (all spent their whole lives in Wisconsin winters) I have owned....never broke/stripped/broke a tool on a single bolt...

I can deal with rust on the body, but this busting bolts left and right it just a pain especially when your trying to finish something on a time schedule.

VPT is right, its all about the materials they use and what they do to prevent rust. Some companies must use crappy cheap materials to build their cars.

I only stripped one bolt on the civic with I did all that work to it. I basically had the entire car apart.

[devlish]

Sure the bodies rust after 2 years but who cares. i fixed that for ya

[paulmeisterpk]

I never really had trouble with breaking bolts on any of my 5 subarus.

[Ten2doyle102]

You must have gotten lucky.... Every subie I have seen or worked on has busted bolts on many occansions....

[paulmeisterpk]

I have owned 5, two of my friends have 2 each, and I've never had a problem with bolts breaking. So I am 9x lucky, or you might just have been unlucky.

[TomKat]

Alignments at work.

Domestic car: 4 years old. Get out the torch and struggle with the adjustment bolts and tie rod ends.

Japanese car: 10 years old. No torch required and usually the tie rods can be turned with your fingers.


They must use better metal.

[VPT]

They actually use worse metal, that is why the bodies on jap cars normally rust out faster. But like I said they normally take more time on rust prevention with coatings and putting stuff where it won't rust.

Domestic cars have no kind of undercoatings and sometimes are even bare metal in allot of spots. They could care less.

[Ten2doyle102]

I have owned 5, two of my friends have 2 each, and I've never had a problem with bolts breaking. So I am 9x lucky, or you might just have been unlucky.

I suppose so. I don't know what it is then.... Meh, oh well! :)