Brake Pads

[Pointdsm]

Shopping for my brake pads for next summer right now, and want to get some info from you guys. What would be a good idea for my uses. I'm planning on racing alot more than last summer, but will drive the car everyday(95% sure of that), so i need a street pad that is good enough for autocross and shawano. Keep cost heavily in mind.

[EVILUTION]

I run carbotech XP12 but those work better for high speed events.

[TomKat]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ For Carbotech, but they work great. I've got XP12's in Dee, Zoey, and Type R. They work fine for everyday use too.

[devlish]

EBC Green or Red. Axis MetalMasters are good too.

not sure how the CarboTechs are for everyday use... unless you want to put them on/off every weekend. seems like a PITA to me. Evil, i thought your Carbotechs were kinda wishywashy on the street until they got warmed up?? curious.

[Pointdsm]

hmm..did a search, where can i find XP12's so i can compare and stuff, even hawks own site doesn;t have them.

[TomKat]

I'm sure Hawk doesn't want to acknowledge the existance of Carbotech. My Carbotech pads are just fine on the street even on Dee in the cold weather today. If the heat range bothers you they make street pads too.

Carbotech 1-877-899-5024. The guy answering the phone is very knowledgible. Just let him now what you want and he will make recommendations for you. They are expensive though.

[EVILUTION]

Well my stock brembos are pretty darn good in stock form. That's what I run daily. When these go I'll get some Hawk HPS because I loved those on the probe.

The XP12s work fine for daily driving but they work best after a warm up lap and on the EVO they are very noisey.

All I'm saying to PDSM is for autocross he may want something that will provide more bite with less heat. Maybe XP10s.

I've been getting my carbotech stuff at a discount from: www.brakeswap.com

[Pointdsm]

Looking at EBC pads now, since i know Erv used them and was happy(if i remember right). Is it a complete sin to mix break pads, such as having different pads up front than you do in the rear. I'm getting bigger breaks and better calipers up front this winter also. Could i use regular pads on the rear or is that very bad? Not looking forward to spend 200 on pads that will last 1 summer.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

Not looking forward to spend 200 on pads that will last 1 summer.

Get used to it, racing is expensive.

[TomKat]

You'll be spending more than that if you get good ones at all corners. Save your money scrap the non factory brake parts idea and get some good pads on the factory stuff instead.

For maximum performance you should match your pads. You don't have to, but you should. The guy I talk to recommended XP12's for the front and XP8's for the rear of Zoey.

[Pointdsm]

My front brakes will be factory, just from a 93-94 DSM instead. I'll still be using stock rotos, and will switch to 5.1 brake fluid, there, you now know my setup, haha.

[EVILUTION]

I'm not sure how Erv got away with EBC green pads at Autobahn. From what I hear they are a street only pad. On 100mph stop and they will fade.

[TomKat]

Eric. Stick to your factory installed brake parts. Do not change it!!!!!!!

Use Ford DOT 3 fluid.

[Pointdsm]

Why stick with DOT 3, and i don't understand why i should stick with my stock brakes, when i want to get new brakes and its a simple upgrade, how can it be a bad thing??

[mpf_supra]

advance auto $30 BRAKE PADS. works and stops fine for me :D

[Pointdsm]

Thats what i was running on at shawano last year..FWIW...

[ZXTUNER]

advance auto $30 BRAKE PADS. works and stops fine for me :D


and they come with liftime warrty burn them up and get new ones

[TomKat]

Why stick with your factory brake parts? Because they work. Now start hob cobling different parts together and I get scart and so should you.

When making modifications to a car you need to access the need. Have you ever had a problem with your brakes under racing conditions? If so the first logical step to upgrade is better pads. If after you have tried better pads and you still have a serious brake problem then I would consider modifications.

Since you have only been to 1 lapping day at Shawano I really don't see how you would have determined that you need a brake upgrade. Spend your money on good pads. That should be more than enough to get you by. If you were attending lappping days at Road America every weekend and you were a really aggressive driver then I could see why you would need a brake upgrade.

[Pointdsm]

Because i need new brakes anyways, i wanted to replace all my brakes because they're old as hell and give me constant problems, and the only thing i don't change, is the calipers, so i'm changing them now. Also, why would Eagle(or DSM), upgrade to the 2 piston calipers and bigger rotors from 92-93??

[TomKat]

The upgraded brakes on the newer cars were done by high paid highly educated professisonals. Factory engineered. Factory reliability.

I have a question for you? You want to install new calipers (2 piston) and bigger rotors. Are you going to change your master cylinder?

[Pointdsm]

Not the master cylinder, but the porportioning valve, yes. So my front brakes don't give me way to much bias.

[TomKat]

OK chew on this: You are replacing single piston calipers with twin piston calipers. Now I'm no engineer, but I would guess the twin piston caliper displaces more brake fluid when compressed. Now is your single piston designed master cylinder going to be able to power those extra two pistons?

I could be wrong about this, but there are probably other things different about the two systems. Chances are when you make changes like this you are going to fuck things up. Brakes aren't something to mess with. It may work OK on the street, but at crunch time you may find out differently.

[Pointdsm]

I know that the brake bias is very different, hence me changing it, but the master cylinder is the exact same from my car to the new models. The diameter is 1", as is the 93-94 brake MC. The '90 has a slightly smaller MC. Why keep DOT 3 brake fluid, when all i read is that it rots the lines out and causes problems??

[TomKat]

The MC is just one factor of many, but I guess you know way more than factory engineers and the with all the overheating problems you've been having with your brakes I guess it's totally worth possibly screwing up your system that works fine now. :? :? :?

DOT 3 fluid rots out lines and causes problems???? Yeah on all my cars the brake lines are ready to fall because of this. Hell like 99% of all the cars on the road use that shitty DOT 3 fluid too. Just waiting for the lines to rust out. Oh it's not the salt they put on the roads it's that damn DOT 3 fluid. :? :?

Problems. Oh yeah that damn DOT 3 fluid again. Rampant brake failures all the time. :? :? :? The people that design brake systems kwow shit because they use DOT 3 fluid.

Where are you reading this crap PDSM?

[VPT]

Sometimes tom is right. If you do upgrade the calipers to a twin piston you do have to get a better mc and an adjustable proportioning valve. And yes it is the salt on the roads that make all your lines rust. More so nowadays it is the liquid salt that they are using that is eating up everything. years ago maintenance that I had to do on the work trucks was brakes, U joints, exhaust, tunes up, ect. Now days it seems all I am doing is replacing rusted out gas tanks, brake lines, fuel lines, oil coolers, ect. Only way to help prolong the inevitable is after installing new components is undercoating them.

[Pointdsm]

I'm reading this on the DSM forums. I hear such great things about doing this little upgrade. I'm listening to you right now too tom, don't think i'm not, i know your more than likely smarter than those guys on there. I just was thinking like this.
2-pistons - more force(equal force)
bigger rotors - more surface area
better brake fluid - they run it in corvettes, why not my car?
I would not get an adjustable P-valve, just the valve from a 93-94 car, since my brake system would be exactly from that car, and no longer from a '91.

[TSi_II]

When it comes down to it, there's only one way to find out if you'll fuck it up or make it better... Do it, learn from your results. Toms knows the shit he knows becasue he's probably done it, learn from him or learn from yourself, either way, you'll be learning. If you do it and it works, great, if not, he told you so. lol.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

i got an idea PDSM, buy a different car. I got a 2g 2.4 stroker I'll sell ya for a good price.

[TomKat]

I like Andy's advice. Ha ha. PDSM if you are hearing about these upgrades on forums make sure you are getting advice from guys who actually race their cars.

There are a shitload of people who modify cars for no reason whatsoever. If someone has done that upgrade and has tested under extreme conditions then I would take that advice more seriously, but the real issue here is that you have no need for a brake upgrade like that yet. I think good pads will work great with what you plan on doing with the car.

Stick with the DOT 3 fluid. That's what I run in all my cars and it works fine for me.

Spend your money on track time not on unecessary modifications.

[Dizmm, (Old Account)]

There are a shitload of people who modify cars for no reason whatsoever.

If your reading it on DSMtuners, lots of those guys mod their cars for bench racing, just because they have bigger and better parts means their car is faster. NOT TRUE

There is this famous quote that says, "its not the ride, its the rider"

[Pointdsm]

I'm talking to the higher up autocross guys on dsmtuners, not the average people. The thing you don't understand, is i'm not spending money stupidly, I need new front calipers anyways. If i didn't think I needed them, i would leave them alone and just buy new pads. I might also need new rear calipers, which i'll see when i get back home and take off the car(might be frozen, might just be old brake fluid).

[TomKat]

So these so called upgraded calipers you are getting. Are they new or slightly used and not abused

I find it hard to believe that serious autocross guys would recommend those mods to you. Bigger rotors and calipers will help you jack squat at an autocross. Plus those mods will bump you into a higher class. Sounds like some bench racing going on to me.

Why do you need new front calipers? What's the problem with them? I know why you need new rear calipers.

[Pointdsm]

The calipers are brand new...never touched. My front calipers(at least front left), was starting to get sticky much like my rears. The price on everything is the same, and i get bigger pistons and 1" bigger rotors(i think its 1", not sure though). Nothing is used of the parts i'm getting this winter, cept the wheels and tires, haha.

[TomKat]

Get a new caliper for the left side. Buy some cheap rotors and get some good pads. Spend your money on something usefull.

[VPT]

Get a new caliper for the left side. Buy some cheap rotors and get some good pads. Spend your money on something usefull.


Like a vacation to vermont.

[Pointdsm]

lol, i like the vacation idea, maybe south carolina for spring break?

-Tom, i'm going to inspect all my calipers when i get home for x-mas before i buy anything, but i like having all new stuff, knowing its not going to fail. I'll have to see when i get home to look at the car really good. Ok, back to pads, i think i'm going to go with EBC green stuff pads for the front, and regular pads for the back, i'd rather have a little more front powere anyways.

[TomKat]

If you like new stuff that doesn't fail then the factory parts are the right choice. EBC green. Evil doesn't like those.

[EVILUTION]

You are cheap skating out on pads. Get a set of very aggressive track pads for the track and get some autozone pads for the street.

[TomKat]

I agree with Evil except if you get Carbotechs there will be no need to change your pads. PDSM you can drive Dee if you want to see how terrible the pads are when cold. :?

[Pointdsm]

That could work too, but I can't buy pads until i figure out what i'm doing with the calipers, since i'm not 100% sure now on if i'm switch years or not. I could order rears though, since they're staying the same.

[EVILUTION]

Well dont get EBC green pads. They are ceramic and are intended to be a dust free street pad. They are not intended to be track pads. The EBC REDs are the track pads and I hear they aren't worth a shit.

[Pointdsm]

hmm..more researching tonight then.

[Extremedsm]

1G dsm's 90-93 have small breaks in the front with one piston calipers. 1994 dsm's have dual piston calipers and the rotors are 7/8 inch bigger than the 90-93. The dual piston calipers and rotors are a great upgrade for the 90-93 since they are quite cheap. If you look around you can get the rotors and calipers for around $100 in great shape. Plus, you are stopping a tank of a car. Stock weight is 3100 pounds and it can not hurt to have a little bit bigger breaks on the car. I think it would be a little easier on them. All the above is in an awd, not fwd.

[Pointdsm]

true about everything, except that 93's also had the bigger rotors and pistons, it was when they changed to the 7bolt mid 1992 that they changed the brakes.

[VPT]

If you like new stuff that doesn't fail then the factory parts are the right choice. EBC green. Evil doesn't like those.


So about 2 weeks ago I replaced a starter in one of the work trucks with a genuine ford part from screwfidis. Brand new 425.00 starter doesn't work so we call them and they order another new one and it will take a few days to get in. A day before the new starter is sposed to come in I go over and check the truck to get ready to replace the starter again. I pop the hood and smell something funny. The starter is smoking and by the time I went and got a wrench for the battery terminals and came back the starter was smoking about twice as much as the first time I seen it. If the truck would have sat any longer the starter could have started a fire and burnt the truck down, my parents house that the truck was right next to and two garages.

So than I ask myself whos fault would it have been if everything burnt to the ground and what insurance would pay for it?

[turbo chick]

My front brakes will be factory, just from a 93-94 DSM instead. I'll still be using stock rotos, and will switch to 5.1 brake fluid, there, you now know my setup, haha.

I have the 94 double piston calipers on Winky. I like them, not a huge change, but better.

[turbo chick]

advance auto $30 BRAKE PADS. works and stops fine for me :D


and they come with liftime warrty burn them up and get new ones

That's what I do. Put on brand new pads, went to Gingerman and braked like mad and then warranteed them a week later, they were shot!!

[SgtRauksauff]

brakes are almost more important than your engine. I was able to pass a porsche at blackhawk with my 1.9L SOHC escort engine, because I had decent pads on the car. I could brake way deeper, and get through the corner faster. Obviously, I wasn't going crazy fast, though, only around 70-75 into turn 7.

When I ended up with 100 more hp under the hood, and the ability to come into turn 7 at 117mph+, I had to step up pad material again. The pad material is just fine (hawk hp plus for now, the blues take too long to warm up for time attacks). It's just that the single-piston sliding caliper and the skinny rotor can't dissipate the heat generated, and the fluid gets boiled, and then the pedal gets soggy, which makes coming into turn 3 at gingerman just about as hairy as you really want to get.

I've got some plans afoot for some kick-ass brakes, but it's coming from some tried-and-true development on rally cars, so I know the parts will work properly together. If you're just updating/backdating OEM hardware, if you make it match it's not going to be a problem at all. It's when people start throwing Willwood 6-piston calipers on the front, and 4-pots on the back, with 13" diameter rotors all around, without changing the MC or the proportioning valves, that retarded things start happening.

--sarge

[Pointdsm]

Back to the subject of this i guess. Took my brakes off today, and 3 out of the 4 calipers are junk. My right rear caliper is the worst, and the pads were very ugly. One pad literally dissinagrated by tapping it, the other had nothing left, it was scary.

[TomKat]

Wait until you do a lapping day at a big track. Then you will see some scarey looking pads at the end of the day.

[EVILUTION]

PDSM... what did you decide to go with?

[devlish]

The pad material is just fine (hawk hp plus for now, the blues take too long to warm up for time attacks).

so you're using the Hawk HPs for track days huh? pretty decent on the street too? that's what i got for my Omni, being such a light car i think i should be fine.

i also upgraded mine to larger calipers from a latermodel dodge, slightly bigger rotors, and a new master cylinder is on the way too. again, this is all tried and tested TK, so don't bother yelling at me.

[Pointdsm]

I'm going with the bigger calipers and rotors for the front, and getting new stock rotors for the rear. I'm going to get a full set of cheap pads for the street, and Hawk HPS pads for the the front for track days.

[EVILUTION]

HPS is a street pad. If you are stuck on Hawk HP+ would be a better choice.

[Pointdsm]

Sorry, i ment the plus's

[SgtRauksauff]

The pad material is just fine (hawk hp plus for now, the blues take too long to warm up for time attacks).

so you're using the Hawk HPs for track days huh? pretty decent on the street too? that's what i got for my Omni, being such a light car i think i should be fine.

Yep, I use the HP plus pads. I use them for daily driving as well as for track days so far. For my car, not even 2400lbs, they work great. I think that when I get my suspension dialed in correctly, they'll do even better, because I won't have to slow down as much before corners. So, the benefit will be twofold: less use of the brakes, which results in less heat. and More time going quicker, which results in greater cooling of the hardware, and keeping the fluid from boiling.


I'd like to go with a more aggressive pad, like something along the lines of a Hawk blue or black, just to see what I can do with them, but driving one friend's car with the blues, they take a lot longer to warm up and actually grip; fine if your'e doing a whole buncha laps, like in wheel to wheel, or an HPDE, but if you're doing Time Attack or autocross type things, from a standing start, they're not going to be so good until halfway around the track, or even at all, in an AX.

--sarge

[devlish]

thanks sarge, gives me something to look forward to

[EVILUTION]

Yep, I use the HP plus pads. I use them for daily driving as well as for track days so far. For my car, not even 2400lbs, they work great.

I'd like to go with a more aggressive pad, like something along the lines of a Hawk blue or black,

I used the HP+ on my PGT at blackhawk. They were fine for the autox but they did get a little heat soaked during the warm up sessions.

For a lapping day at BHFs I would suggest going with the blues especially since the DSM is heavy yet quick.

[TomKat]

If you like to like to waste time and get dirty changing pads. You may as well go with the really agressive track pads.

[EVILUTION]

What is your point?

[Pointdsm]

Tom is just lazy...thats his point, and he has many cars to choose from to drive, not like he has to drive the vette every single day.

[TomKat]

If I was just lazy I'd stay home and do a lot of complaining like (ahem) other folks.

I drive Dee just about every day. She is sporting Carbotech XP12's which are a track pad. They work just fine from the get go even when it's below 0 degrees F.

My point is: if you are going to change pads for track events you might as well get the aggresive ones that supposedly don't work when they are cold. Then you should be good to go at the track.

[TomKat]

Yep, I use the HP plus pads. I use them for daily driving as well as for track days so far. For my car, not even 2400lbs, they work great. I think that when I get my suspension dialed in correctly, they'll do even better, because I won't have to slow down as much before corners. So, the benefit will be twofold: less use of the brakes, which results in less heat. and More time going quicker, which results in greater cooling of the hardware, and keeping the fluid from boiling.





I've been thinking about this Sarge and I don't agree. If your car corners faster you will end up having to brake harder. Greater cornering speeds make for greater straightaway speeds causing you to use your brakes more.

[EVILUTION]

I would run the XP12s everyday but they squeal like VPT talking about gas prices.

[devlish]

Tom is just lazy...thats his point, and he has many cars to choose from to drive, not like he has to drive the vette every single day. far from lazy... biking, racquetball, and calls me at least once a week throughout the summer to come over between 10pm-12am to help him bleed his brakes. Tom can attest to this too. maybe every week is exaggerating, but AT LEAST once/twice a month i'd say!!!

[Pointdsm]

I know tom isn't lazy, he just has way to much to do before a race day or lapping day to worry about changing pads. On the other hand, i have the time. I'm really wondering if my talon will be ready for blackhawk, i really want to go, but its during school, so if something happens, its not like i can go home and fix it. I would have to run my crappy street tires as well, so not as much fun. I hate winter!

[EVILUTION]

Street tires are fine for a lapping day. Thats all I ever run.

[Pointdsm]

So. run the yokohamas for lapping days, and the slicks for autocross days? Think i'll run the slicks at shawano too.

[TomKat]

Street tires will be fine for Blackhawk. It's not a competition and you'll spend most of time learning the line and practicing technique anyways.

R compound tires will make the biggest difference at an autocross. Not so much at a higher speed track. I'd bring both sets of tires to Shawano. Street tires for the morning and then switch to stickies in the afternoon when you have your chase races lined up.

[SgtRauksauff]

Yep, I use the HP plus pads. I use them for daily driving as well as for track days so far. For my car, not even 2400lbs, they work great. I think that when I get my suspension dialed in correctly, they'll do even better, because I won't have to slow down as much before corners. So, the benefit will be twofold: less use of the brakes, which results in less heat. and More time going quicker, which results in greater cooling of the hardware, and keeping the fluid from boiling.





I've been thinking about this Sarge and I don't agree. If your car corners faster you will end up having to brake harder. Greater cornering speeds make for greater straightaway speeds causing you to use your brakes more.

My reasoning was this:

With the suspension set up well (good alignment, cornerweighted, spring rate and strut valving set properly), unlike how it is now, I will not have to use the brakes as much to get through the corners.

Right now, I can sometimes get really fast, a few times even hitting the rev limiter in 4th gear (~117mph or so) right before the turn, but I still have to bring the speed down enough so that there is still some grip left to turn with. With the suspension set good, I won't have to dig into the brakes quite as much, since I'll be able to go through the corner at a higher speed. I'll have a higher speed at the next corner, but won't have to slow down as much for that one either. The brakes might take a little more heat in that brief amount of time, but with the longer time between braking points, and better venting, they'll be getting rid of the heat instead of soaking it into the fluid like happens now.

Basically, I'll be trying to have better times not by driving at a faster max speed, but by braking less overall. Of course, I could be thinking backwards, but that's the fun of this pastime: learning what goes faster in practice rather than theory.

Are Carbotechs the one that MC members get a 15% discount on? I might go with a set just to try them out, but they seem to be way more expensive than the Hawks do. Since my car weighs barely even 2400lbs, I'm not sure that I'd go with XP12s, though, maybe just XP10's. Or, do 12's in the front and 10's in the rear, as I see that a lot of people do (corvette guys specifically).

--sarge

[TomKat]

Call Carbotech and the guy on the phone can recommend the proper pads. He'll ask you what you how you are going to be driving. 1-877-899-5024. I'd check the websit Evil posted for their prices too. Yes Council members get a 15% discount.

[SgtRauksauff]

And noted in an email from the organizer of the event at Autobahn, Drivers of those events get a 10% dicsount....from Carbotech.


--sarge

[Pointdsm]

Well, i'm not going anymore..it'll just be blackhawk, shawano, and autox for me.

[EVILUTION]

Blackhawk will be a blast.

[Pointdsm]

It will be, that will be the first event for everything on my car. When can we register for that event? I'm only going to the friday lapping day.

[EVILUTION]

I'm going to do BHF or AB but not both. BHFs will be cheaper and closer so I am leaning toward BHFs as well. I guess I'll go to whichever one has the most CWSCC members attending.

[Mr. Fuji]

Whens Blackhawk? On a Sunday I hope! I would like to give it a try sometime. Sounds like fun. As far as brakes- TomKats are the awsome! Never drove any better. Sometimes when we service brakes, its easy to get rushed and forget about the basics. Pad clearance in the caliper, High Temp lube on all moving and sliding surfaces, flush and bleed the heck out of the Hyd. System. Rotor thickness-----

John

[Pointdsm]

blackhawks lapping day is friday april 20th.

[EVILUTION]

I'm leaning toward the BHF lapping day. Maybe I'll hit up the autocross as well, we'll see.

[TomKat]

So Evil. Looks like 2007 will be just like 2006 for you. Just going to hit up a couple of events. I guess you really aren't into this sport that much.

PDSM - I'd recommend the school on Saturday.

There are 3 Time Attack events a BFR this year:

Saturday May 26th
Saturday June 23rd
Saturday Aug. 25th

The cheapest way to experience Blackhawk is on a Time Attack day. Autobahn is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, but that's the cost of experiencing a world class track.

Council will be doing a Time Attack at Autobahn on Saturday June 9th (north track) and Saturday Oct. 6th (south track), but those aren't nearly as fun as the full track.

[EVILUTION]

So Evil. Looks like 2007 will be just like 2006 for you.

I hope so, 2006 was a great year! I'm sure someone else will claim the fastest import in town this year but thats no big deal.

I road race my car to work every single day. I just hit 140 and went sideways several times tonight just going to get a sub from quizno's!

[Pointdsm]

give me prices tom, how much is the lapping day, and how much is the school day?